Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Soloman1]

Wow, he stormed out in huff. And he's had enough of us?

[Obee]

2 hours ago, dhc1 said:

That’s what I recall! 
 

Are you “ scared” to play a 4 index at 7400 yards? Apparently, you’re the type of player that simply can’t hang with a 300 yard driving 4 index due to length....

Uh ... No. LOL

 

Last time I played a ~7400 yard course in competition that I remember, I shot 72 in the final round of the Carlton Woods Invitational at The Club at Carlton Woods (Fazio Course). Course is 7358, 76.4/144. Shot 80, 76, 72 for an average score of 76 on a course rated 76.4. We played the full length of the course every day except maybe two holes each day they would move around like in a tour event.

 

There is no course on earth, regardless of length, where a *legit 4-handicap can beat me, straight up, more than 10%(?) of the time match play and probably 5%(?) of the time, stroke play. The only caveat to that would be, in stroke play if you put me on a course with a hole that had a level carry of 240 or more and absolutely zero room for bail out, then I could not finish the round and would, technically, lose to them stroke play if they could carry the hazard. Downhill (or even slightly downhill carries of 240 or even 250+) I can handle, but not level ground. I have never once, though, come across a tournament set up that required much more than a 230 or 240 carry, and most long carries are set up from elevated tee boxes. But I digress. Back to the 4-capper question.

 

I've played hundreds of 4-cappers over the years. They come in all shapes and sizes, just like all other golfers,: Some long hitters, some short hitters. Some seniors, some young kids. Some steady and with solid short games. Some wild and inconsistent. I have been a member at a three different clubs, each for long periods of time, playing with many of the same guys over and over and over. A true 4-capper is a 4 for one or more, actual golf reasons. Usually, it's a combination of reasons. If you are a legit 4 who turns in every score, you are not scratch or below because certain parts of your game get exposed on a regular basis. And those parts of your game don't all of a sudden not get exposed on a very long golf course! In fact, they get even more exposed -- and the handicap system is actually built to take this into account.

 

Which is to say that my advantage over a 4-capper on a long, difficult course is going to increase, even though I'm a short hitter. Why? Because I'm significantly more skilled at the game of golf than a 4-handicapper, just like a +4 or +5 is significantly more skilled than I am. I'm a 0 to +1 and not a +4 or +5 for a reason: I'm simply too short to be a +3 anymore (lowest was +3.6 in my 30's). Let me play from a pro's drives today, and I'm still +3 to +5 like magic! But we're not talking about magic in this thread we're talking about the real world.

 

The other day, a 3 - 4 capper I've played with 100+ times in the last two years in a "mixer" we have at our club every Wed, Fri, Sat, Sun, shot 71 on a day I shot 72. He beat me straight up. I think that was the 3rd or 4th time ever in over 100 rounds. The story is similar with any number of other guys who are legit 4-cappers. There's just too big of a gulf there to be bridged, regardless of course set-up.

 

*All that said: I've played with a couple/few "4-handicappers" in my life who were actually scratch or better. If you hang around golf enough, you see these guys come to member-guests and/or invitationals and shoot three straight rounds under the course rating, rarely missing a shot. these guys are not 4's, they are sandbagging cheaters. I have personally known a few over the years, and they quickly wear out their welcomes wherever they go. Either that, or they join a club where that kind of thing is accepted in order to stack an inter-club team or something like that. 

 

Could I lose to that guy half the time? Absolutely -- because he's not a 4. Thankfully, guys like that are few and far between and they're easy to spot. You just need to find out the tournaments they play in and see if they are somehow, miraculously, always in the top 3 net in every tournament they play in where there's cash or prestige involved. LOL

Edited September 8, 2020 by Obee

[juststeve]

The bottom line is that no 4 handicapper is close to an elite golfer.  Ifoura particular hero drives it 300 yards center of the fairway there is something else that makes him a 4 handicapper.  On the other hand LPGA players are elite golfers and they will seldom lose to a 4 handicapper.

 

Steve

[J Bez]

A while back there was an article comparing a plus 2 to a PGA tour pro, and the huge difference between them.  Among the things they stated were course set up, playing when you dont feel 100%, the travel, etc.  All of these things would apply here as well.

 

Add 2 feet to the greens, firm them up a little and grow the rough 2 inches form a normal club set up and your 4 handicapper most likely becomes a 7 or 8 handicapper - even higher if you give it a tournament feel with a gallery.  On that setup as a 7 handicapper he's breaking 80 about 1 out of 4 rounds.  No way he could compete with an LPGA touring pro.  As others have said, if he hits it long and straight, then he sucks at something else to be a 4, and it will show.

[J Bez]

The longest LPGA course - not counting Colorado -  was the 2019 LPGA Championship at Hazeltine - was 6,800 yards - 160 players and middle of the pack averaged 76.75 for the week.  Can a 4 handicapper, under tournament setup shoot 76 at Hazeltine??

[Obee]

22 minutes ago, J Bez said:

A while back there was an article comparing a plus 2 to a PGA tour pro, and the huge difference between them.  Among the things they stated were course set up, playing when you dont feel 100%, the travel, etc.  All of these things would apply here as well.

 

Add 2 feet to the greens, firm them up a little and grow the rough 2 inches form a normal club set up and your 4 handicapper most likely becomes a 7 or 8 handicapper - even higher if you give it a tournament feel with a gallery.  On that setup as a 7 handicapper he's breaking 80 about 1 out of 4 rounds.  No way he could compete with an LPGA touring pro.  As others have said, if he hits it long and straight, then he sucks at something else to be a 4, and it will show.

Pretty much exactly what I said. ?

[Shilgy]

Seems like a good time to end this cockamamie thread, eh? 
 

 

But no...some time in the not far enough off future someone else will dig this up from the dregs of...their boredom? And this same cast of characters will have to explain it all over again.  
 

Soloman was right.....sigh.....

[North Texas]

28 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Seems like a good time to end this cockamamie thread, eh? 
 

 

But no...some time in the not far enough off future someone else will dig this up from the dregs of...their boredom? And this same cast of characters will have to explain it all over again.  
 

Soloman was right.....sigh.....

 

Soloman as in King Solomon? 

[Shilgy]

31 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

Soloman as in King Solomon? 

Soloman1 top of this page lol.

[Argonne69]

19 hours ago, J Bez said:

The longest LPGA course - not counting Colorado -  was the 2019 LPGA Championship at Hazeltine - was 6,800 yards - 160 players and middle of the pack averaged 76.75 for the week.  Can a 4 handicapper, under tournament setup shoot 76 at Hazeltine??

 

The LPGA played at Inverness in Toledo this year. The course was set up at 6805 yds. The rough was rather brutal. The cut was +6. Ten players shot par or better for the week, and only five broke par. The median score was +5. 'Not a chance in h-ll that the 4 capper breaks 80.

[Soloman1]

But, but, but, he's a man and he can outdrive them by 100 yards! They're just girls...

 

[rich_s2]

in the world of good golfers, a -4 sucks. Like, he is horrible. I am lower than that and am horrible. The fact this thread is here, on this website just tells how out of touch most golfers are with reality. 

[vman]

I can't believe this thread still has legs. It's a fun question,  but the truth is a 4 handicap male golfer would have a horribly miserable and humiliating time playing in an LPGA event...I'm thinking possibly dead last.

BUT......it's possible he may beat an LPGA player in a 9 hole friendly match that she doesn't care about.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, vman said:

I can't believe this thread still has legs. It's a fun question,  but the truth is a 4 handicap male golfer would have a horribly miserable and humiliating time playing in an LPGA event...I'm thinking possibly dead last.

BUT......it's possible he may beat an LPGA player in a 9 hole friendly match that she doesn't care about.

While LPGA tour pros are nice ladies, they aren't that nice.

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

While LPGA tour pros are nice ladies, they aren't that nice.

 

Maybe ---- I get a couple holes up on Wie, she's probably developing a wrist injury!

 

KIDDING! And she's one of many golf pros I think would be a hoot to play with (assuming she and any other adult players left mom and dad at home).

[MelloYello]

The hilarious thing is that the 4-handicapper has never broken par. At best, he's praying on those last few holes that he avoids a blow-up and cards something low-70s. 

 

Meanwhile, the female pro is out there dropping 65's when she's feeling it. 

 

Am I the only 5-handicap that gets that he sucks, LOL?

Edited September 10, 2020 by MelloYello

[North Texas]

Surely there's a 4 handicapper reading through this thread that can post their GHIN scores for some kind of reference. And tell us what courses, ratings, and tees. 

[hanfrac]

7 hours ago, North Texas said:

Surely there's a 4 handicapper reading through this thread that can post their GHIN scores for some kind of reference. And tell us what courses, ratings, and tees. 

 

My index is 3.7.  Playing the same golf course as the AJGA girls this past weekend, I shot 79-79-74 for 232.  Out of 78 girls aged 13-18 (I think), I would have beaten 7 of them.  The winner shot 204 - beat me by 28 shots.  Pretty sure the average LPGA tour pro would have thumped me royally.  79-79-74 is slightly better than my average.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, hanfrac said:

 

My index is 3.7.  Playing the same golf course as the AJGA girls this past weekend, I shot 79-79-74 for 232.  Out of 78 girls aged 13-18 (I think), I would have beaten 7 of them.  The winner shot 204 - beat me by 28 shots.  Pretty sure the average LPGA tour pro would have thumped me royally.  79-79-74 is slightly better than my average.

Yeah but, could you beat the pro? We all know(from Michelle Wie) that they are better at that age. 
 

 

yes I am kidding 

[jmkenn0]

I'm a 5 going up quickly - If I played the worst LPGA player 10 times and she gave me a stroke each match, I would never beat her in medal play.  Maybe go 8-1-1 if we played match play.  And yes, I hit it farther than the longest LPGA players.

 

 

[dhc1]

So the 77th players were at 3 over for the ANA. Anyone have an idea of the setup vs. stated? Similar distance to card or less? IIRC, 200 yards in either direction is equal to a rating stroke. 

[The Pearl]

23 hours ago, North Texas said:

Surely there's a 4 handicapper reading through this thread that can post their GHIN scores for some kind of reference. And tell us what courses, ratings, and tees. 

I am 4.4 currently. I play courses ranging from a rating of 68 to 72. Slopes averaging probably 115 to 120.  I have broken par but never shot at or below a course rating. My best differential was 1.9.  The most birdies have had in a round is 5. 

 

I am a 4.4 because I rotate between the same 5 or so courses. My home course is the hardest, but I score the best at because I have played it 300 plus times so it lowers my index, so in those terms my index is lower than my overall game.  I hit it straight, not long, very rarely 3 putt or make doubles. At 57 yrs old, I see no way that I could get to be a legit scratch. 

 

I play a lot of golf with a couple of scratch guys.  They are significantly better than me and I don't think either one of them would beat a competent LPGA player.  They are scratch but I have never seen them go super low.

 

Anecdoctal..Our state Women's Am played on the course that we frequent. The medalist shot several under par for two rounds in match play qualifying. My best was 2 over par. Not sure what tees they played. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by The Pearl

[The Pearl]

On 9/8/2020 at 12:05 PM, Obee said:

Uh ... No. LOL

 

Last time I played a ~7400 yard course in competition that I remember, I shot 72 in the final round of the Carlton Woods Invitational at The Club at Carlton Woods (Fazio Course). Course is 7358, 76.4/144. Shot 80, 76, 72 for an average score of 76 on a course rated 76.4. We played the full length of the course every day except maybe two holes each day they would move around like in a tour event.

 

There is no course on earth, regardless of length, where a *legit 4-handicap can beat me, straight up, more than 10%(?) of the time match play and probably 5%(?) of the time, stroke play. The only caveat to that would be, in stroke play if you put me on a course with a hole that had a level carry of 240 or more and absolutely zero room for bail out, then I could not finish the round and would, technically, lose to them stroke play if they could carry the hazard. Downhill (or even slightly downhill carries of 240 or even 250+) I can handle, but not level ground. I have never once, though, come across a tournament set up that required much more than a 230 or 240 carry, and most long carries are set up from elevated tee boxes. But I digress. Back to the 4-capper question.

 

I've played hundreds of 4-cappers over the years. They come in all shapes and sizes, just like all other golfers,: Some long hitters, some short hitters. Some seniors, some young kids. Some steady and with solid short games. Some wild and inconsistent. I have been a member at a three different clubs, each for long periods of time, playing with many of the same guys over and over and over. A true 4-capper is a 4 for one or more, actual golf reasons. Usually, it's a combination of reasons. If you are a legit 4 who turns in every score, you are not scratch or below because certain parts of your game get exposed on a regular basis. And those parts of your game don't all of a sudden not get exposed on a very long golf course! In fact, they get even more exposed -- and the handicap system is actually built to take this into account.

 

Which is to say that my advantage over a 4-capper on a long, difficult course is going to increase, even though I'm a short hitter. Why? Because I'm significantly more skilled at the game of golf than a 4-handicapper, just like a +4 or +5 is significantly more skilled than I am. I'm a 0 to +1 and not a +4 or +5 for a reason: I'm simply too short to be a +3 anymore (lowest was +3.6 in my 30's). Let me play from a pro's drives today, and I'm still +3 to +5 like magic! But we're not talking about magic in this thread we're talking about the real world.

 

The other day, a 3 - 4 capper I've played with 100+ times in the last two years in a "mixer" we have at our club every Wed, Fri, Sat, Sun, shot 71 on a day I shot 72. He beat me straight up. I think that was the 3rd or 4th time ever in over 100 rounds. The story is similar with any number of other guys who are legit 4-cappers. There's just too big of a gulf there to be bridged, regardless of course set-up.

 

*All that said: I've played with a couple/few "4-handicappers" in my life who were actually scratch or better. If you hang around golf enough, you see these guys come to member-guests and/or invitationals and shoot three straight rounds under the course rating, rarely missing a shot. these guys are not 4's, they are sandbagging cheaters. I have personally known a few over the years, and they quickly wear out their welcomes wherever they go. Either that, or they join a club where that kind of thing is accepted in order to stack an inter-club team or something like that. 

 

Could I lose to that guy half the time? Absolutely -- because he's not a 4. Thankfully, guys like that are few and far between and they're easy to spot. You just need to find out the tournaments they play in and see if they are somehow, miraculously, always in the top 3 net in every tournament they play in where there's cash or prestige involved. LOL

 

This  is  exactly  correct.

[ThinkingPlus]

13 minutes ago, dhc1 said:

So the 77th players were at 3 over for the ANA. Anyone have an idea of the setup vs. stated? Similar distance to card or less? IIRC, 200 yards in either direction is equal to a rating stroke. 

The adjustment range is 100 yards to 300 yards.  Less than 100 yards is no adjustment.  Adjustment to men's rating is 0.5 to 1.3 over the adjustment range.  For the women's rating it is 0.6 to 1.6.

[The Pearl]

On 9/7/2020 at 1:25 PM, Red4282 said:

Again, there are short ladies too. If the matchup is one of long knock ladies vs a 55 year old 4 cap who hits it 240... well duh. If you take one of the shorter hitters on the lpga, the 230s knockers, agains a long hitter 4, you honestly think there is NO shot on a 7400 yard course? Throw in some decent rough for her 90 mph driver swing, and goodnight. This discussion, and what ive been saying...isnt can your average run of the mill 4 capper beat and average lpga tour most the time, its can a 4 capper beat a lpga tour, if the matchup and conditions favor it? YES. Plausible. The average lpga tour golfer shoots over par and misses cuts at times on a womens setup... lol you think if she was havin one of those days on a 7400 yard course she would break 80????

 

The longer the course, the greater the advantage to an LPGA player.  Your logic is backwards. A 4 capper that can drive the ball 300 yds has serious deficiencies in his game. These deficiencies will get magnified on a longer course.  The LPGA player will simply plod along like a former scratch player retiree in Florida. Middle of the fairway, short of the green, chip up, tap in par.

 

[Soloman1]

Old Red had enough of us and said he was done with this thread...

 

[dhc1]

45 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The adjustment range is 100 yards to 300 yards.  Less than 100 yards is no adjustment.  Adjustment to men's rating is 0.5 to 1.3 over the adjustment range.  For the women's rating it is 0.6 to 1.6.

Makes sense. I think it’s fair to use 200 yards ~ 1 stroke as a rough benchmark. I wouldn’t be surprised if the courses are set up about 200 yards short of the markers to add risk/reward but could be completely wrong

[JDCON]

But what if we take shots after every birdie and par? 

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Old Red had enough of us and said he was done with this thread...

 

I left because i was “on drugs” or im “sexist”. If you want to have a discussion, im fine, but there is no need for that. Ill say it again, this thread is : Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro? On the basis of logic and realism, i wouldnt use the word “can” If the odds are lightning strike odds, or even 1 in 379 like suggested. 1 in 20? I think thats reasonable and would validate the question “Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?”

 

i dont know obee, but she claims its 5% in stroke play which is probably something i agree with and ill say it again, if i had a 1000 bucks i would bet the LPGA pro. Im currently a +0.3 and I have lost to 4 cappers before... granted I play bad, they play good, but still it happens.  She also shot an 80 on a 7400 yard course, which according to the rated at 76 and is within range of a 4 cappers ability. Likely? No. Possible? Absolutely. I do think with the right golfers the odds change slightly. Lpga stats from 2019, the bottom 10% averaged 240-245 total distance, which Im guessing is 220-225 carryish. 7400 yard courses have carries like this inherently built in, maybe not a hazard, but often rough. Rough is another tricky one, and offers an advantage to men with speed. How much of an advantage i have no clue...to suggest that a long course gets EASIER for short hitters vs long hitters goes against every data point we have learned in golf, strokes gained, etc.

 

for example, on a short course, par 4, a man 4 cap is 50 yards out and the lpga is 110 out, both in the fairway, depends on the golfers but id give the advantage to the lpga pro, hands down. Now, long course, par 4, 4 cap is 120 out and lpga pro is 180 out. Thats an equalizer of *some* degree.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Red4282

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I left because i was “on drugs” or im “sexist”. If you want to have a discussion, im fine, but there is no need for that. Ill say it again, this thread is : Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro? On the basis of logic and realism, i wouldnt use the word “can” If the odds are lightning strike odds, or even 1 in 379 like suggested. 1 in 20? I think thats reasonable and would validate the question “Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?”

 

i dont know obee, but she claims its 5% in stroke play which is probably something i agree with and ill say it again, if i had a 1000 bucks i would bet the LPGA pro. Im currently a +0.3 and I have lost to 4 cappers before... granted I play bad, they play good, but still it happens.  She also shot an 80 on a 7400 yard course, which according to the rated at 76 and is within range of a 4 cappers ability. Likely? No. Possible? Absolutely. I do think with the right golfers the odds change slightly. Lpga stats from 2019, the bottom 10% averaged 240-245 total distance, which Im guessing is 220-225 carryish. 7400 yard courses have carries like this inherently built in, maybe not a hazard, but often rough. Rough is another tricky one, and offers an advantage to men with speed. How much of an advantage i have no clue...to suggest that a long course gets EASIER for short hitters vs long hitters goes against every data point we have learned in golf, strokes gained, etc.

 

Agree in principle, especially that last sentence.

 

I've NEVER seen a course rating that is lower from a shorter tee set. Distance is the #1 obstacle to scoring.