Spieth Working with Butch

[Rapidcat]

Just now, Fairway14 said:

 

I've replied to your post(s) a couple of times, which I believe is sufficient.

If Bryon DeChambeau wants to defy conventional wisdom and swing for the fences that's his business. If you want to hang your hat on what Bryson is doing that's your business. 

The most sensible way to play consistently good golf is to learn and practice fundamentally sound address technique (grip-posture-alignment) , because this promotes a good looking effective swing that produces good shots throughout the bag, from driver thru wedge.  This is what Nicklaus and Tiger did. It does not matter if the year is  1950, 1980, or 2020, because shooting low scores has always about making consistently effective swings which produce on target shots.

 

You have replied but with nothing substantial IMO.

 

Bryson is just one example, I am not hanging my hat on what he does, plenty of pros drive for distance. Sound fundamentals need not be renounced when striving for distance off the tee.

 

Let's not continue with this discussion it's not productive, you will hang on to your opinion.

 

All the best.

[Shilgy]

29 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

So you have ignored my post because it doesn't suit your narrative and you can't refute it.

 

Here's some info to show that some players do change their driver swings chasing distance:

 

Launch angle: PGA tour player example Justin Thomas 14.2 deg w 2100 spin for a 117mph swing speed. He’s not the fastest ss on tour (plenty in the 120+mph) or the biggest body (only 5ft 9 in) but he creates the optimal conditions to be one of the longest drivers. His angle of attack is +4.8 deg!

Average angle of attack for the PGA tour is -1.3 degree (so negative AoA) but that is because of the 110mph+ driver swing speeds of tour pros, they have enough to hit slightly down (for control) and still get enough distance if you choose to favour control over distance. We also know that AoA contributes only 15 percent of your ball’s launch angle.

However, many hit slightly up on the ball eg Rory who is statistically the best driver hits up by +2.5 degrees.

 

Stats were from a PGA Tour project done with BodiTrak advisor Dr. Robert Neal (I have no affiliation nor connection with BodiTrak, just saw it in a Youtube video)

 

So you can have either an up or down AoA with a driver. Sure as eggs an upward AoA with a driver is a different swing than when that golfer is playing an iron.

 

You stated this:

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

 

To refute this, consider that Bryson changed his swing, maximized his distance and won a US Open this year.

 

Not everyone suffers like Jordan Spieth or Ian Baker-Finch when chasing distance from the tee.

 

You may not like it but the golf world's moved on, for better or worse.

Why is swinging up with driver so different than down with iron? The swing is an arc.  Ball position has the most to do with the down or up question I would think.  Play the ball forward of the bottom of the arc and, voila, you are “swinging up”. 
 

While I am asking questions....some need to view the teachings of Monte, and other credible instructors, on the “face rotation” conundrum of flat swings. Yes the whole “less face rotation is better” sounds logical.  Which would support the upright swing theory being better. If you want to ruin your game Google “rate of closure golf”. 

[Rapidcat]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why is swinging up with driver so different than down with iron? The swing is an arc.  Ball position has the most to do with the down or up question I would think.  Play the ball forward of the bottom of the arc and, voila, you are “swinging up”. 

Shilgy, it's not, as you describe above.

 

I was originally exploring Fairway's comment:

"It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot."

 

I'm stating that the driver set-up to promote upward AoA for some players is in search of distance and is a different set-up from that of their irons (which are about precision). Searching for driver distance from the tee doesn't need to cause problems with their 2nd shot swing ala Justin Thomas.

 

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

Shilgy, it's not, as you describe above.

 

I was originally exploring Fairway's comment:

"It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot."

 

I'm stating that the driver set-up to promote upward AoA for some players is in search of distance and is a different set-up from that of their irons (which are about precision). Searching for driver distance from the tee doesn't need to cause problems with their 2nd shot swing ala Justin Thomas.

 

Yes, I oversimplified it. No question.  But I would suggest that the players “ruined” chasing distance are those that viewed it as a “different” swing.

[Rapidcat]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yes, I oversimplified it. No question.  But I would suggest that the players “ruined” chasing distance are those that viewed it as a “different” swing.

Maybe...but how do you know?

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Rapidcat said:

Maybe...but how do you know?

Never will. My personal opinion, for any player with a “good” swing. And no I am not going to define that but for the moment let’s focus on the pros..... is that the player would be best off speeding up “his” swing. Rather than making changes.  Better fitness and speed training are, imo, a better way to add yardage than swing changes.

[Rapidcat]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Never will. My personal opinion, for any player with a “good” swing. And no I am not going to define that but for the moment let’s focus on the pros..... is that the player would be best off speeding up “his” swing. Rather than making changes.  Better fitness and speed training are, imo, a better way to add yardage than swing changes.

Well speed and fitness training worked for Bryson.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Why is swinging up with driver so different than down with iron? The swing is an arc.  Ball position has the most to do with the down or up question I would think.  Play the ball forward of the bottom of the arc and, voila, you are “swinging up”. 
 

While I am asking questions....some need to view the teachings of Monte, and other credible instructors, on the “face rotation” conundrum of flat swings. Yes the whole “less face rotation is better” sounds logical.  Which would support the upright swing theory being better. If you want to ruin your game Google “rate of closure golf”. 

 

For Tiger, while his iron play remained consistently top shelf, the driver devolved into a mystery for him. 
 

As Haney said, Tiger feared the driver.

 

Incredible that the club that was one of, if not his greatest weapons at times, became a hand grenade that could go off anytime.

 

Testament to how absurdly good he is that he still completely dominated his sport given this. 

[Fairways_and_Greens]

On 12/8/2020 at 7:52 PM, mwkbmw said:

BREAKING NEWS... Just in... Jordan Spieth devastated over the fact that jobin does not give a damn... Considering retirement from competitive golf to transition to TV analyst...

 

MORE BREAKING NEWS... jobin devastated at the thought of having to listen to Spieth mic'd up...

In this thread, no one cares.

[Man_O_War]

butch will change his grip...arm structure and will take speith 4 years to click

[dlygrisse]

9 hours ago, Man_O_War said:

butch will change his grip...arm structure and will take speith 4 years to click

Butch prides himself in finding the root of the problem that creates a chain of events that fixes the rest of the  problems.  So he will start by Identifying what he feels that one thing is that's causing the issue and seeing where that leads.  

 

Could they end up going further down the rabbit hole like Tiger did after winning the Masters?  sure, but I don't think Butch generally likes that approach.  

[SPIF]

On 12/13/2020 at 7:56 AM, Fairway14 said:

 

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

 

Do you make things up and state them as fact in all areas of life, or just with golf?

[Shilgy]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:37 AM, Rapidcat said:

Well speed and fitness training worked for Bryson.

That is what I said as well.

[GolfTurkey]

4 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Butch prides himself in finding the root of the problem that creates a chain of events that fixes the rest of the  problems.  So he will start by Identifying what he feels that one thing is that's causing the issue and seeing where that leads. 

 

That's kinda dangerous, what if he concludes that it's Jordan's wife?

[Rapidcat]

42 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

That is what I said as well.

I know, I am agreeing with you - my original reply was a little poorly written.

[dlygrisse]

41 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

That's kinda dangerous, what if he concludes that it's Jordan's wife?

Sometimes tough decisions need to be made when it comes to life’s work and golf. 😁😁

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

That's kinda dangerous, what if he concludes that it's Jordan's wife?

Well, much like the posts saying Rickie’s endorsements gotta go......

 

 

Although, just like the Fowler endorsements Jordan’s wife has been in the picture the entire time.

[Divot License]

11 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Butch prides himself in finding the root of the problem that creates a chain of events that fixes the rest of the  problems.  So he will start by Identifying what he feels that one thing is that's causing the issue and seeing where that leads.  

 

Could they end up going further down the rabbit hole like Tiger did after winning the Masters?  sure, but I don't think Butch generally likes that approach.  

I remember Butch in the below video was asked about Jordan (this was right after the Masters collapse) and referenced the very weak left hand grip and how that effects his impact and need to flip the club though the ball. 

 

I suspect this may be where Butch starts looking however from his track record he may not touch it if he feels removing that release pattern and chicken wing will do more harm than good. 

 

 

[bscinstnct]

On 12/13/2020 at 10:29 AM, Rapidcat said:

Maybe...but how do you know?

 

“Cause I mean...how do you know?”

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

“Cause I mean...how do you know?”

 

 

Yukon Cornelius!

[Valtiel]

21 hours ago, Jedaigeki said:

I remember Butch in the below video was asked about Jordan (this was right after the Masters collapse) and referenced the very weak left hand grip and how that effects his impact and need to flip the club though the ball. 

 

I suspect this may be where Butch starts looking however from his track record he may not touch it if he feels removing that release pattern and chicken wing will do more harm than good. 

 

 

 

That confuses me a bit because that is exactly the opposite of what Jordan actually does. His whole thing is an absolute minimum of flipping with a very stable clubface through impact. If we compare his driver to someone like Tiger...

 

...we can see that Jordan's right hand is very much still underneath the left. This is basically the anti-flip, especially compared to Tiger on the right who's right hand has flipped over the top of the left pretty noticeably. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Valtiel

[Outlier]

On 12/8/2020 at 7:15 PM, CallawayOffCenter said:

That would be really good. I really hope so. I think I can speak for everyone in saying we all just wanna see Jordan win again.

That's just a TAD bit presumptous don't you think? "Everyone" in YOUR house?, "everyone" YOU talk to? surely you don't mean us red- blooded American blue collar, grew up on public course folks!!!  Nobody I know wants to see that whiney, born with a silver-spoon, always pounting and shouting at his ball guy win ever again....unless it is to prevent Bryson D. from winning.

[noodle3872]

So has this relationship been confirmed by a reputable source or are we still just pontificating?

[Hstead]

23 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

That confuses me a bit because that is exactly the opposite of what Jordan actually does. His whole thing is an absolute minimum of flipping with a very stable clubface through impact. If we compare his driver to someone like Tiger...

 

...we can see that Jordan's right hand is very much still underneath the left. This is basically the anti-flip, especially compared to Tiger on the right who's right hand has flipped over the top of the left pretty noticeably. 

Not exactly the same points in their swings.

 

One of the things that held me back in my own swing was this incorrect belief of a "more stable club" face held open etc.  Chase Cooper finally exorcised those demons by showing me about fifteen tour players that ALL look like Tiger, letting the club fly.  The "leveraged" "no roll" fallacy is doing a lot of damage to a lot of golf swings.  Thank goodness I am not striving for that stuff anymore and my scores dropped to a plus handicap finally.  Same for Chase, he said it kept him from making the cut at Q school because he kept pulling wedges, all due to the face pointing left with that type of release.  He could show it with a magnetic rod attached to the face.  It is the same as having the ball above your feet.  The face points left.  Tigers release is better. 

[Divot License]

2 hours ago, Hstead said:

Not exactly the same points in their swings.

 

One of the things that held me back in my own swing was this incorrect belief of a "more stable club" face held open etc.  Chase Cooper finally exorcised those demons by showing me about fifteen tour players that ALL look like Tiger, letting the club fly.  The "leveraged" "no roll" fallacy is doing a lot of damage to a lot of golf swings.  Thank goodness I am not striving for that stuff anymore and my scores dropped to a plus handicap finally.  Same for Chase, he said it kept him from making the cut at Q school because he kept pulling wedges, all due to the face pointing left with that type of release.  He could show it with a magnetic rod attached to the face.  It is the same as having the ball above your feet.  The face points left.  Tigers release is better. 

Agreed, 

 

The more loft on the face the more it is pointing left when being held "square" to the line. While I understand the logic behind the concept in reality I don't see it working as often unless with highly skilled players who practice a lot or those with incredible strong players who are able to put a large amount of shaft lean on the ball at impact with a lot of speed. . 

[North Texas]

7 hours ago, noodle3872 said:

So has this relationship been confirmed by a reputable source or are we still just pontificating?

 

Unless I missed it, nothing has been confirmed by a reputable source. All I have seen is that two guys on a podcast threw it out there as a rumor with no verification. That was either in this thread or the other Spieth thread. Don't remember which. And I have not even seen that rumor reported anywhere else on any other website. But, again, I could have missed it. 

[bscinstnct]

15 hours ago, noodle3872 said:

So has this relationship been confirmed by a reputable source or are we still just pontificating?

 

Is there such a thing? ; )

 

I don’t believe nobody but Sam Donaldson!

 

 

 

 

[shodge2011]

20 hours ago, Outlier said:

That's just a TAD bit presumptous don't you think? "Everyone" in YOUR house?, "everyone" YOU talk to? surely you don't mean us red- blooded American blue collar, grew up on public course folks!!!  Nobody I know wants to see that whiney, born with a silver-spoon, always pounting and shouting at his ball guy win ever again....unless it is to prevent Bryson D. from winning.

Jealous? Holy s***. 😢

[dlygrisse]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Is there such a thing? ; )

 

I don’t believe nobody but Sam Donaldson!

 

 

 

 

Well Sam wanted you to believe his hair was real. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

Well Sam wanted you to believe his hair was real. 

 

Lol, yeah, well, thing is

 

Sam could sit across from the most powerful men on the planet

 

And you could see them shaking in their shoes.

 

Literally.

 

Was like he could see right through anybody right into their very worst thoughts and fears and at anytime

 

Bam!

 

He could hang you out to dry like jerky in the sun for the vultures. But Sam had class. He’d just toy with them. 

 

Not many can say that ; )

 

SD like

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by bscinstnct