LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[Nixhex524]

1 hour ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

The PGA Tour provides a huge and valuable service to these players.  Providing a vast and complex infrastructure to set the stage for these guys to make money. They provide teams of professional people to deal with the logistics and management of tournament golf--- which starts 2 years before the ball is hit on a specific golf course.  They established record high TV contracts despite falling ratings.  Current and retired PGA Tour players are on the Tour's board of directors to insure the Tour serves the needs of the golfers.  Without such organization Phil would just be another smartass that can do really cool things with a golf ball hanging out at a local country club. 

 

They do provide valuable services, but,  the tour isn't the only reason these guys are successful.  The tour boomed with popularity once Tiger hit the scene.  Not to say golf wouldn't be around today without him, but the reality is that people tune in to watch the players, they are the reason the tour has popularity and traction anywhere and the prize funds are what they are.  Without a draw, the PGA Tour could be the XFL.  The PGA Tour knows this and does not want them playing anywhere else to lend credit to another league.  From a business standpoint, I can understand that.  Like mentioned before, protecting the brand.  If we think sponsors are going to be loyal only to the PGA tour, we are seriously kidding ourselves.  They go where there is recognition and the players could bring that anywhere, not just the PGA Tour so of course they want to monopolize viewership.

 

People can hate on Phil and the Tour can smear him for his poor choices of words but all this would do is create MORE opportunity for players.  I see nothing wrong with that unless there is a no compete clause or something like that.  But I can't really imagine playing my azz off for YEARS just to finally make the Tour which still guarantees me nothing unless I win then act like I owe them everything.  If the PGA Tour isn't happy then they should provide more to keep the players happy.  I see that as a win/win and a stronger brand.

[stinger_gc]

It's tough to say how this will play out. But if LIV becomes a week-in and week-out tour in the next couple years, I could see more players jumping ship. I think LIV was really smart to partner with the Asian tour. The biggest problem with LIV is lack of OWGR status. I'm not even sure if LIV is looking for a tv broadcast partner. 

If LIV does become a viable competitor, I think the PGA tour and DP tour will do a few things:

• First we're gonna see a lot more WGC's/no cut guaranteed money events. I bet the purse for the CJ Cup and the Zozo will be a lot higher. The Scottish Open might get elevated to a WGC in the near future to attract more top talent.
• The Fedex Cup prize pool will be north of $100 million with the winner getting over $20 million. I think the R2D will get a nice bump as well.

 

[mosesgolf]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:21 AM, subrew said:

This isn't going to lure away the new young crop of twenty something players that grew up watching Tiger, and want to win the Masters and the British Open and chase Tiger's trophy count.  Who is going to be lured away are the veterans that pretty much sit in the Top 50-100 rankings, win an event once every 3-5 years, whose legacy within the PGA has already been established.  I.e. you are good, not top 10, but you are known.  They still make excellent money, but not crazy money.

 

Now imagine you get a healthy sign-on bonus.  Get to play 8 events a year, fly first class, have your family with you, and get to do some fun team events.  Oh yeah, and probably make as much finishing 23rd as you did when you won a generic PGA event back in 2017.

 

I'm actually excited about the team event aspect.  I always thought a team based event would be fun for the PGA and its main sponsors to put together.  Team Callaway vs Team Taylormade vs Team Nike vs Team Addidas etc.  3-4 events per year earning points, end of season team playoff event.

Yeah but what happens when the money dries up. XFL all over again?

[stinger_gc]

26 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

Yeah but what happens when the money dries up. XFL all over again?

This league is backed by the Public Investment Fund which has over $600 billion in assets. The total prize money for LIV isn't even a drop in the bucket.

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, sonnygolf said:

 

"They are independent contractors. Organizations may choose which independent contractors they work with." 

 

Its against a players consitituational and employment rights to limit an indepent contractor from where they can work. The only stipulation the tour states is that you must play X number of events.  Prove me wrong and show where is says the tour has the legal right to stop someone from playing outside the tour. Phil can take the tour to court and sue them for $500m

There are no constitutional rights or claims in play at all.

 

You don't understand the legal definition of independent contractor and for some reason don't want to understand what players sign up for to be members of the Tour.  It's not up to anyone here to prove you wrong, you haven't supplied any facts that would support the claims you make - that's probably where you need to start - analyze the Tour's bylaws, the agreements that govern its members, etc. and explain why the Tour doesn't have the ability to limit what players do in many contexts (and when you say "Tour", remember it includes the players and at some point players had input into formulating the rules).  Membership has privileges, responsibilities and . . . certain limitations. 

 

Phil can sue the Tour for whatever he wants - he has yet to have suffer anything at the Tour's hands that provides him with a real claim, and it is pretty unlikely that will happen.

[Bricks]

1 hour ago, KizIsTheMan said:

This league is backed by the Public Investment Fund which has over $600 billion in assets. The total prize money for LIV isn't even a drop in the bucket.

They will get bored before the money dries up, now the success of LIV is all on the golf fans, live attendance, how many people talk about it on social, etc.

 

I’m not a fan of not earning what you kill, this feels like the beginning problems similar to what the NBA has with their players.

 

 

[Mustard_Tiger]

1 hour ago, KizIsTheMan said:

This league is backed by the Public Investment Fund which has over $600 billion in assets. The total prize money for LIV isn't even a drop in the bucket.

 

You think the Saudis care about golf? They can have all the money in the world. The moment they find this golf league an annoyance the money will be gone--to be used to wash their dirty regime in some other way.

[mizuno player]

9 hours ago, fairways4life said:

"They are free agents"

They are independent contractors. Organizations may choose which independent contractors they work with. 

 

"They have a family and a generation to support"

We all do. 

 

"When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money"

Play better. 

 

"When you don’t play well enough you lose your card"

See above. 

 

"When you lose your card PGA don’t care"

The PGA Tour has arguably the most generous pension program in all of professional sports. And they aren't required by law to provide it. They choose to. 

 

"It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job."

They never said that. They just said you can't work here anymore. 

 

"The tour aint a Philanthropy"

I think you mean "the tour isn't a philanthropist." But the tour donates tens of millions of dollars to charity every year. So they are in fact a "philanthropy." 

 

Have fun with this one. 

Spot on post. 

 

[stinger_gc]

42 minutes ago, Bricks said:

They will get bored before the money dries up, now the success of LIV is all on the golf fans, live attendance, how many people talk about it on social, etc.

 

I’m not a fan of not earning what you kill, this feels like the beginning problems similar to what the NBA has with their players.

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

You think the Saudis care about golf? They can have all the money in the world. The moment they find this golf league an annoyance the money will be gone--to be used to wash their dirty regime in some other way.

I agree the Golf itself is not Norman or the Saudi regimes motive. I highly doubt either party is doing this to grow the game. Norman just wants to sabotage the tour since he believe's Finchem "screwed over" the World Tour he tried to create back in the 1990s. (basically how the WGC's were born). This is Norman's swan song and I personally hope it fails so that we never hear from him again.

As for the Saudi's this is more about legitimacy within the western world. Everyone is well aware of the stuff that goes on over there but more and more sports are hosting events down there. WWE has been doing stuff down there since 2016 and F1 has had races there for 2 years. 

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1996/09/23/norman-chews-out-finchem-for-stealing-his-world-tour-idea-pepper-to-spice-solheim-cup-greens-300-game

 

 

 

[Notashank]

I hope the LIV tour  succeeds and golfers who don’t play the pga tour can get very rich. I myself wish there was a tour like this when I was younger and playing. 

[stinger_gc]

9 hours ago, Notashank said:

I hope the LIV tour  succeeds and golfers who don’t play the pga tour can get very rich. I myself wish there was a tour like this when I was younger and playing. 

I think competition is good. And I agree if I was on the PGA Tour struggling to make ends meet I would 100% consider playing in this

[TheMoneyShot]

Phil is in!

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

10 hours ago, Notashank said:

I hope the LIV tour  succeeds and golfers who don’t play the pga tour can get very rich. I myself wish there was a tour like this when I was younger and playing. 

So you hope the Saudi regime is successful in their sportswashing endeavors so they can continue to divert attention away from the regime's policies of repression, human cruelty and murdering reporters that annoy them?  Lets also not forget that it's these diversionary tactics that helped create fertile ground for the radicalization of murderers that killed over 3000 innocent people on US soil. 

 

One should be asking themselves, why would they be willing to throw so much money behind a bunch of B & C talent and has beens?  If something seems too good to be true then it probably is.  Pay no attention to the men in dark sunglasses holding Sawzalls.   

[golfandfishing]

I fell a few pages behind here and certainly have not read every post, so this may have been brought up (and then shouted down) already:

 

Players do not NEED a release to play the conflicting events. They can play anywhere that will have them at any time. What they need is a release to play conflicting events and not violate the PGA Tour policies. Violation of these policies could range from some sort of reprimand, to a fine, to a suspension or a “ban” and countless other sanctions in between. Players can play these events without a release, they just risk the likely scenario of having their pga tour membership suspended or revoked entirely. This is allowed in the bylaws of the tour, which were crafted largely with the consultation of the players advisory board that is made up of……pga tour players who are in place via a vote by their fellow pga tour players. 
 

So players can certainly play these events if they want. What they likely cannot do is retain their pga tour membership and any legal battle that ensues will be very difficult considering that the players themselves made the policy that allows their membership to be suspended, cancelled, etc. 

[DLBTide7]

Let’s look at the LIV from the perspective of a player in the top 100-150 on the money list. Perhaps they are in their mid 30s and have won a couple of TOUR events over the years. Here are just a few of the variables they have to process if approached by LIV. 

 

1. They were told at the TOUR players meeting during the week of the Honda Classic that any player that plays in the LIV events loses TOUR status

2. Their medical benefits and pension benefits are through the TOUR. What happens to these benefits? 

3. While doing well, a player in this range has not earned generational wealth 

4. If they play in all of the LIV events, just finish middle of the pack for the season, they would win approximately 6x what they make, on average, on the TOUR in any year 

5. They all know Mickelson has been suspended. It may be for as long as a year (or even permanent) 

6. Can they trust the Saudi’s to live up to their financial commitments for this year?  For next year ? Because if they roll the dice and play in LIV events, and the Saudi’s tank it, are these guys now without an opportunity to earn a living ?

7. IMO, most players in this category will sit for the first one or two LIV events to be played, see what sanctions the TOUR hands down to the early adopters, and then see what happens on the lawsuit front (and there will be lawsuits). 

 

The LIV does have interest from players in this category. These are not the superstars (or young guns) looking to create a lasting legacy by winning majors. They are like us; trying to earn the best living possible and take care of their families.
 

And while Mickelson’s comments berated the TOUR about there not being more $ directed to the players, most of the non-superstar players feel exactly like Phil—The TOUR has been too much about the TOUR and not as much about all the players as it should be.  Look at the PIP as an example- it was primarily about giving the top name superstars (like Tiger and Phil) more money. It does nothing for the average TOUR player. 
 

And, before anyone asks, this comes from personally talking to players in this category. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aenemated]

28 minutes ago, DLBTide7 said:

Can they trust the Saudi’s to live up to their financial commitments for this year?  For next year ? Because if they roll the dice and play in LIV events, and the Saudi’s tank it, are these guys now without an opportunity to earn a living ?

 

"But, beware: the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal, for that is the boundry, and the price, of immortality."

 

 

 

[fairways4life]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyShot said:

Phil is in!

 

 

 

Posted this in the other thread but is obviously relevant here as well.

 

The Telegraph article is behind a paywall so I can't really see it. But the snippet says:

 

"Six-time major winner must either appear in all the rebel tournaments or pay back a percentage of his fee and probably a penalty, sources say." 

 

The headline notes his "fee" was 24 million pounds (a little more than 30 million dollars). 

 

I can't see anything else in the article and I don't see anyone else reporting on it yet. So who knows. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by fairways4life

[Golfnuck]

In reading thru these threads I believe there is still a misunderstanding of what the PGA Tour is.

 

- It is not like the NBA, NHL, MLB, or NFL where the "owners" are not the players.

- It is more like a restrictive Professional Association.  Think lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants (CPA).  You cannot practice as a lawyer in New York unless you are accepted into the New  York State Bar.

- It is the players themselves that make up the rules for admittance and also to remain in the PGA Tour.

- If the PGA allows its players (members) to play in other competing associations then they end up watering down their product and it directly harms the players (members) of the PGA Tour.  So in essence by restricting its members to only playing in the PGA Tour it keeps the big $$$ from TV contracts etc flowing into the Tour which is owned by the players themselves. 

- And because it is more like an association of professionals, restrictions on its members may be allowed by law.  Using the lawyers again is it legal to restrictive only those that qualify for the New York Bar to practice law in New York.  Also someone who is in the New York Bar cannot practice in another state. 

[mikewohlwend]

16 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Phil can sue the Tour for whatever he wants - he has yet to have suffer anything at the Tour's hands that provides him with a real claim, and it is pretty unlikely that will happen.

 

I have been wondering about the defamation comments.  I haven't seen or heard of the tour saying a word about Phil.

Edited April 27, 2022 by mikewohlwend

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, fairways4life said:

 

Posted this in the other thread but is obviously relevant here as well.

 

The Telegraph article is behind a paywall so I can't really see it. But the snippet says:

 

"Six-time major winner must either appear in all the rebel tournaments or pay back a percentage of his fee and probably a penalty, sources say." 

 

The headline notes his "fee" was 24 million pounds (a little more than 30 million dollars). 

 

I can't see anything else in the article and I don't see anyone else reporting on it yet. So who knows. 

 

Just says "sources say" so nothing concrete at this point.

[fairways4life]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/report-phil-mickelson-to-play-all-eight-saudi-league-events

[geesecougar2]

56 minutes ago, fairways4life said:

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/report-phil-mickelson-to-play-all-eight-saudi-league-events

 

Yeah he should do this and play in the PGA. There's no way they can ban the defending champion from playing.

 

The WRX community is definitely anti-Phil/Saudi, but we'll see which side the people are on with the crowd response. I suspect they'll be pro-Phil, everything I see on social media seems 80/20 pro Phil. 

[Mustard_Tiger]

Based on Phil being all in with the Bonesaw Tour I am convinced of two things: (1) he's been suspended by the PGA Tour; and (2) he is desperate for money (likely due to gambling debts).

 

Good riddance, Phil! I used to be a fan but you've proved yourself to be morally bankrupt. Please move to Saudi Arabia (do they have a low income tax rate?) and don't come back.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, geesecougar2 said:

 

Yeah he should do this and play in the PGA. There's no way they can ban the defending champion from playing.

 

The WRX community is definitely anti-Phil/Saudi, but we'll see which side the people are on with the crowd response. I suspect they'll be pro-Phil, everything I see on social media seems 80/20 pro Phil. 

 

Does he need pga tour approval to play the pga championship?

 

He should definitely play. He’s the face of the Saudi league now. Even though he called them some pretty harsh things. The press conferences could be interesting when they ask him about that ; )
 

 

[jonsnow]

5 hours ago, aenemated said:

 

"But, beware: the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal, for that is the boundry, and the price, of immortality."

 

 

 

"He chose---poorly."

[mosesgolf]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:21 AM, subrew said:

This isn't going to lure away the new young crop of twenty something players that grew up watching Tiger, and want to win the Masters and the British Open and chase Tiger's trophy count.  Who is going to be lured away are the veterans that pretty much sit in the Top 50-100 rankings, win an event once every 3-5 years, whose legacy within the PGA has already been established.  I.e. you are good, not top 10, but you are known.  They still make excellent money, but not crazy money.

 

Now imagine you get a healthy sign-on bonus.  Get to play 8 events a year, fly first class, have your family with you, and get to do some fun team events.  Oh yeah, and probably make as much finishing 23rd as you did when you won a generic PGA event back in 2017.

 

I'm actually excited about the team event aspect.  I always thought a team based event would be fun for the PGA and its main sponsors to put together.  Team Callaway vs Team Taylormade vs Team Nike vs Team Addidas etc.  3-4 events per year earning points, end of season team playoff event.

 

22 hours ago, KizIsTheMan said:

This league is backed by the Public Investment Fund which has over $600 billion in assets. The total prize money for LIV isn't even a drop in the bucket.

Imo this sounds like a money losing endeavor.  They won't fund long term something that will continually lose money. The only chance they had was to get some stars.  But that ship has sailed.  I love Pat Perez but not interested in watching him play the LIV Tour.  The PGA TOUR is where it's at.  History and the Majors is what most folks are interested in.

[Mustard_Tiger]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Does he need pga tour approval to play the pga championship?

 

He should definitely play. He’s the face of the Saudi league now. Even though he called them some pretty harsh things. The press conferences could be interesting when they ask him about that ; )
 

 

 

If he's been suspended by the PGA Tour I am certain the PGA of America would uphold the suspension. There's absolutely no other reason Phil would not play in the PGA Championship. It's also why he didn't play in the Masters.

[stinger_gc]

What if Phil joins LIV for a year, plays like absolute crap in all the events while still getting the massive payout, trashes the course set-ups and  calls Norman an awful commissioner and at the end of it all turns out to be a PGA Tour plant who destroyed LIV from within. Phil gets the LIV money and Monahan agrees that Phil will get the 1st place PIP money as long as he's a living/breathing individual.

Edited April 28, 2022 by KizIsTheMan

[Notashank]

I know $42 million reasons why Phil should play. 

[aenemated]

32 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

Imo this sounds like a money losing endeavor.  They won't fund long term something that will continually lose money. The only chance they had was to get some stars.  But that ship has sailed.  I love Pat Perez but not interested in watching him play the LIV Tour.  The PGA TOUR is where it's at.  History and the Majors is what most folks are interested in.

 

That's the thing. They're not in it to make money. Which will ultimately be the problem for those naive enough to get involved. 

 

What happens once sponsors start dropping these guys, they're 86'd from the tour ... and nothing comes of this whole mess for SA except more bad press? CP shuts it down and no one gets paid. What's Phil gonna do, file a lawsuit? Good luck with that one. 

 

This will fizzle out and backfire and all those who sold out will be left holding the bags. 

 

Quote

You used to ride on a chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discovered that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal