LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I doubt the Tour is "afraid" of any legal battle, nor making decisions based on that.  

I guarantee whatever thought process is guiding its decisions is pragmatic and strategic and real vs. the Greg Norman Clownshow School of Marketing and Management.

 

PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan most definitely should have the attorneys working around the clock to defend his stand that 'any Tour members who join the LIV Golf series will be banned from the PGA Tour'.  Mr. Monahan will be delivered a crushing blow.  

[fairways4life]

58 minutes ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

 

PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan most definitely should have the attorneys working around the clock to defend his stand that 'any Tour members who join the LIV Golf series will be banned from the PGA Tour'.  Mr. Monahan will be delivered a crushing blow.  

 

Not so sure. Most lawyers and legal experts that have weighed in on the subject seem to agree that the PGA Tour would likely prevail.

 

https://www.conductdetrimental.com/post/can-the-pga-tour-outdrive-legal-challenges-if-they-ban-players-who-defect-to-the-super-golf-league

 

Summary: Despite the inevitable legal challenges that the PGA Tour would face if they chose to ban players if they join the SGL, they will likely prevail in both Section 2 and Section 1 antitrust challenges.

 

This article also explains things well = https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-sgl-ban

 

[Duct Tape]

1 hour ago, fairways4life said:

 

Not so sure. Most lawyers and legal experts that have weighed in on the subject seem to agree that the PGA Tour would likely prevail.

 

https://www.conductdetrimental.com/post/can-the-pga-tour-outdrive-legal-challenges-if-they-ban-players-who-defect-to-the-super-golf-league

 

Summary: Despite the inevitable legal challenges that the PGA Tour would face if they chose to ban players if they join the SGL, they will likely prevail in both Section 2 and Section 1 antitrust challenges.

 

This article also explains things well = https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-sgl-ban

 

Perhaps more importantly, several WRX legal experts, some moonlighting as their medical advice is less essential with Tiger’s continued improvements, concur with this opinion. 
 

🤓😀

[CT007]

I’m not a lawyer, but I’m curious if PM is setting up a discrimination/defamation case.

 

If PGATour denies PM to play at LIV event, but allows others - that seems not right (singling out PM for punishment)

 

If PGATour denies all requests to play in LIV event, while as we all know they have most recently for the SA event earlier this year - this seems not right (monopoly like)

 

Or maybe PM is doing what he said all along, pointing out his differences of business judgment of the PGATour and leveraging another entity to effect change 

[sonnygolf]

Phil is the only player with guts

 

The facts are:

 

They are free agents

They have a family and a generation to support

When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money

When you don’t play well enough you lose your card

When you lose your card PGA don’t care

 

Now tell me why anyone should have allegiance to an organisation that will dispose of you at the first opportunity. 

It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job. Time players stood up and fought for their rights.

The only thing that matters to ever tour player is providing for their family and loved ones. 
 

Let go Phil

Fight your Phight

The tour aint a Philanthropy...

......needer is Phil

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by sonnygolf

[ChipStrokes]

this should go well!

[bladehunter]

The counter point is that they provide an opportunity and in return expect loyalty for that opportunity.  Much like most employers.  
 

 

i know two journeymen pga pros local to me.  You should investigate their retirement program.  If you invest properly as a journeyman with 1 win , you retire as a person with several million in liquid assets.   Pretty near impossible to do that in most professions unless you own the company , or put in 50 plus years and save every dime.  I’m talking they have multi million dollar parachutes on top of their paid for local McMansion and hunting lodge and 12 cars etc.  they’re doing fine if they kept a card for 10 plus years and don’t have a coke habit. 

[bscinstnct]

17 minutes ago, CT007 said:

I’m not a lawyer, but I’m curious if PM is setting up a discrimination/defamation case.

 

If PGATour denies PM to play at LIV event, but allows others - that seems not right (singling out PM for punishment)

 

If PGATour denies all requests to play in LIV event, while as we all know they have most recently for the SA event earlier this year - this seems not right (monopoly like)

 

Or maybe PM is doing what he said all along, pointing out his differences of business judgment of the PGATour and leveraging another entity to effect change 

 

Im thinking the tour denies all requests.

 

Then the LIV/some players sue.

 

The tour ties it up in courts as long as possible.

 

Then says they will allow players to play in 2 liv events per year. 
 

But that could take years. 
 

 

[fairways4life]

"They are free agents"

They are independent contractors. Organizations may choose which independent contractors they work with. 

 

"They have a family and a generation to support"

We all do. 

 

"When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money"

Play better. 

 

"When you don’t play well enough you lose your card"

See above. 

 

"When you lose your card PGA don’t care"

The PGA Tour has arguably the most generous pension program in all of professional sports. And they aren't required by law to provide it. They choose to. 

 

"It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job."

They never said that. They just said you can't work here anymore. 

 

"The tour aint a Philanthropy"

I think you mean "the tour isn't a philanthropist." But the tour donates tens of millions of dollars to charity every year. So they are in fact a "philanthropy." 

 

Have fun with this one. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by fairways4life

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, CT007 said:

I’m not a lawyer, but I’m curious if PM is setting up a discrimination/defamation case.

 

If PGATour denies PM to play at LIV event, but allows others - that seems not right (singling out PM for punishment)

 

If PGATour denies all requests to play in LIV event, while as we all know they have most recently for the SA event earlier this year - this seems not right (monopoly like)

 

Or maybe PM is doing what he said all along, pointing out his differences of business judgment of the PGATour and leveraging another entity to effect change 

I think what Phil is doing is called “ crapping where you eat “.       He’s been fed by the tour for a long time.  Now he’s going to try to blow it up on his way out.  I just don’t know.  I stay on the fence with this.  But lean toward Phil just being greedy.   Or more likely being in a money pinch ( again ) and looking for one more payday to keep his empire afloat. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by bladehunter

[Precis1on]

26 minutes ago, sonnygolf said:

 

It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job. 

 

 

Most top tier employers would have a problem with you working for both them and the competition and/or actively working against the best interests of the employer in a public setting. 

[lowndes]

2 hours ago, fairways4life said:

 

Not so sure. Most lawyers and legal experts that have weighed in on the subject seem to agree that the PGA Tour would likely prevail.

 

https://www.conductdetrimental.com/post/can-the-pga-tour-outdrive-legal-challenges-if-they-ban-players-who-defect-to-the-super-golf-league

 

Summary: Despite the inevitable legal challenges that the PGA Tour would face if they chose to ban players if they join the SGL, they will likely prevail in both Section 2 and Section 1 antitrust challenges.

 

This article also explains things well = https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-sgl-ban

 

 

I agree - I think the antitrust arguments are losers.  There are countless examples of these type of cases being brought (and lost) in America.

 

I also just don't understand the appeal of this new tour.  It seems like it isn't really competing against the PGA Tour but more of a tweaner of folks past their prime and either not quite old enough or just in the early stages of the Champions Tour.  The whole no cut, shotgun start, etc. doesn't make for a very appealing event either in my opinion.

[chisag]

... I have been a member of the Screen Actors Guild for 42 years. They do their best to make working conditions and compensation fair. Appearing in a commercial as the spokesperson and influencing viewers to invest in the product resulting in hundreds of million dollars in profits, it certainly isn't unreasonable to be paid every time that commercial/infomercial runs on the air. It is a minuscule percentage but employers have tried to do away with residuals for many years. SAG has never let that be an issue. They also provide an excellent retirement program and generous health insurance. 

... That said, they are not without problems. We of course are not allowed to accept non union work which would dilute their bargaining power. That makes it rough for new SAG members that need the money a non union job provides even if the pay structure is unfair. They don't always fight for the actor when an employer like say Nike that hires tons of actors disputes payments for work done. The dues are very expensive. 

... But the good faaaaaaar outweigh the bad. Certainly some will cheat and do non union work and hope it is never discovered. Some bich and complain about many of the rules. But in the end and just like the PGA Tour Players Reps, actors have bargaining power in negotiations and while we never get everything we want, it is still the best game in town. I have zero sympathy for anyone making millions of dollars while getting rich from those that laid all the groundwork back in the day and feel 20 million isn't enough and want 40 million while doing absolutely none of the work, other than just playing golf.  

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, Precis1on said:

 

Most top tier employers would have a problem with you working for both them and the competition and/or actively working against the best interests of the employer in a public setting. 

Most explicitly forbid it and you can face immediate termination if you violate it, in addition to possible legal action if you are found to be sharing intellectual property. 

[getair23]

33 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

The counter point is that they provide an opportunity and in return expect loyalty for that opportunity.  Much like most employers.  
 

 

i know two journeymen pga pros local to me.  You should investigate their retirement program.  If you invest properly as a journeyman with 1 win , you retire as a person with several million in liquid assets.   Pretty near impossible to do that in most professions unless you own the company , or put in 50 plus years and save every dime.  I’m talking they have multi million dollar parachutes on top of their paid for local McMansion and hunting lodge and 12 cars etc.  they’re doing fine if they kept a card for 10 plus years and don’t have a coke habit. 

What if it's a Diet Coke habit?

 

[bscinstnct]

I think the tours 15 event minimum is legal

 

I think the tours mandate that you can’t play what would be defined as another tour is legal

 

I think the LIV, if it goes this route , can argue they are not a “tour”. Just a host of a number of events with no mandate on how many events a player must play in. 
 

In this case, I think that if a player fulfills the minimum number of events for the PGA tour, the courts could rule that the players have the right to play in a certain number of LIV events. 
 

2-4.

 

something like that. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by bscinstnct

[4thand11]

"15 of the top 100 in the world" doesn't exactly get the blood pumping.  If it was better they would have said "10 of the top 50", "5 of the Top 25", etc.  I translate it to be a bunch of guys between 50-100.  And that's the BEST 15 players in the field.

 

Like I said, it will be a horrible product BUT if players see guys like Garrigus winning $3.5 million beating bunch of nobodys, it has to be tempting to the better players to get their cut.  I guess that is LIV's business plan.

Edited April 26, 2022 by 4thand11

[Wham49]

they have every right to get a new job if they want the problem with most PGA players is that they are country club rich kids who have never had to perform a real job, so ya it seems unfair to them, because they feel entitled to not have to work or perform to a specific level and still get paid millions of dollars. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

@sonnygolf

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, getair23 said:

What if it's a Diet Coke habit?

 

Ha !  JD has earned snd blown at least 3 fortunes , he’s nobody’s victim. Except his own !! 
 

 

duh. I missed the joke.  Well played.  Well played ! 

Edited April 26, 2022 by bladehunter

[CT007]

Bladehunter 

 

I think there is a common assumption that endorsement money to star players is as result of PGATour - based on viewership and branding (PIP) it is really from the Majors.  Which are not PGATour events. 

 

it is hard to separate the two I understand, they do all compliment each other - but in an era that high school kids are getting $1MM in NIL income to attend Jackson State to play football - I can see how someone would measure their NIL value at a lot more 

 

I know media rights are held by PGATour - but somehow the NCAA and their billion $ agreement still allows a kid to get NIL $. 

 

I think PM comments about the PGATour mgmt of media/players/etc is about getting some changes to benefit the star players and in the end benefit the mid tier players     Anyone dealing with Union’s know that today, Labor has the upper hand over Mgmt. 

[lowndes]

57 minutes ago, sonnygolf said:

Phil is the only player with guts

 

The facts are:

 

They are free agents

They have a family and a generation to support

When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money

When you don’t play well enough you lose your card

When you lose your card PGA don’t care

 

Now tell me why anyone should have allegiance to an organisation that will dispose of you at the first opportunity. 

It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job. Time players stood up and fought for their rights.

The only thing that matters to ever tour player is providing for their family and loved ones. 
 

Let go Phil

Fight your Phight

The tour aint a Philanthropy...

......needer is Phil

 

 

 

Then don't play for the PGA Tour.  They aren't being held hostage.  They are welcome to leave the PGA Tour and pursue business objectives.  These type of decisions are made by numerous individuals/businesses every day.  Employers can tell you that you do not have the right to get other employment while employed for them.

[Duct Tape]

59 minutes ago, sonnygolf said:

Phil is the only player with guts

 

The facts are:

 

They are free agents

They have a family and a generation to support

When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money

When you don’t play well enough you lose your card

When you lose your card PGA don’t care

 

Now tell me why anyone should have allegiance to an organisation that will dispose of you at the first opportunity. 

It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job. Time players stood up and fought for their rights.

The only thing that matters to ever tour player is providing for their family and loved ones. 
 

Let go Phil

Fight your Phight

The tour aint a Philanthropy...

......needer is Phil

 

 

Phil, Phil….   How many user names can you burn through here on Golf WRX?  
 

Best to you and Amy….

[Danielson]

I'm willing to bet that a large portion of them are just happy they get to play golf for millions of dollars and are not worried about squeezing every cent they can from the tour. There's tons of things the Tour could/should do better, but aside from the prize money nothing on the Saudi tour appears better.

[fairways4life]

25 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I think the tours 15 event minimum is legal

 

I think the tours mandate that you can’t play what would be defined as another tour is legal

 

I think the LIV, if it goes this route , can argue they are not a “tour”. Just a host of a number of events with no mandate on how many events a player must play in. 
 

In this case, I think that if a player fulfills the minimum number of events for the PGA tour, the courts could rule that the players have the right to play in a certain number of LIV events. 
 

2-4.

 

something like that. 

 

If I had to make a prediction today, I would say that this is the likely result of all this. The PGA Tour already allows players to play in 3 events per year that are not sanctioned by the Tour. One of those is the Saudi Invitational (which is played the same week as Pebble). You have to apply for a release, and the Tour almost never denies them. 

 

So instead of one Saudi Invitational per year, we now essentially have 8-12 Saudi Invitationals per year. And players are allowed to use their allotted 3 free passes to play in any of them that they choose. 

 

From the perspective of LIV, I think that's an easier way of getting some big names to tee it up in your events. Someone like Jon Rahm might not jump ship to play the Saudi "tour" full time. But he might tee it up 3 times a year in these standalone events. The Saudi Invitational had a ton of star players this year. So if you get all of those guys to play in 3 per year, your fields will be pretty strong. Especially if you limit the field to 48. 

 

And from the PGA Tour's perspective, that sort of compromise is what might keep you out of an expensive lawsuit. 

 

I think this is the sort of middle ground that the whole thing will settle into.  

 

Now, the interesting part will be what happens with the Saudi events that are played in the U.S. Because one stipulation of the PGA Tour's "3 tournaments per year rule" is that they must be outside of the U.S.  

Edited April 26, 2022 by fairways4life

[Golfnuck]

1 hour ago, sonnygolf said:

Phil is the only player with guts

 

The facts are:

 

They are free agents

They have a family and a generation to support

When you miss the cut PGA don’t give you money

When you don’t play well enough you lose your card

When you lose your card PGA don’t care

 

Now tell me why anyone should have allegiance to an organisation that will dispose of you at the first opportunity. 

It's like your employer telling you, that you have no right to get another job. Time players stood up and fought for their rights.

The only thing that matters to ever tour player is providing for their family and loved ones. 
 

Let go Phil

Fight your Phight

The tour aint a Philanthropy...

......needer is Phil

 

 

 

Have a read of this summary of the history of the PGA Tour - https://thegolfnewsnet.com/ryan_ballengee/2018/08/09/whats-difference-pga-america-pga-tour-110482/

 

The PGA Tour is actually "owned" by the touring golf professionals.

 

They (PGA golf professionals) are the one that set up the rules for eligibility to admittance into the PGA Tour.

 

They establish how the money's are paid out and a lot of the earnings of the PGA Tour are held back to fund a very generous pension for those that make it into the PGA Tour.

 

Phil is the only player with guts ...... ???  Phil is merely disagreeing with the majority of his fellow PGA Tour players.  Those professionals like the PGA Tour as it is.

 

The Commissioner and the entire management team are not the bosses rather they are the employees of the PGA Tour whose owners are the playing professionals.

 

The PGA Tour is not like the NBA, NHL or NFL.  In those sports the owners are not the players.

 

Any PGA Tour professional is free to resign and play as a professional independently.  Good luck finding a tournament to play in.

 

[Bad9]

15 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

Phil, Phil….   How many user names can you burn through here on Golf WRX?  
 

Best to you and Amy….

 

I was just coming to post the same thing.

[m d g]

I only fight for my right to party...

[third-times-a-charm]

If there was a new tour which was backed 100% by clean money but was still trying to compete with the PGA Tour - would players be allowed to play in it?

 

Handcuffing players to ONLY play the PGA Tour is the big miss on the PGA's part.

[jonsnow]

If the PGA tour wants to tell the players where they can & can't play, they should start paying the employer half of SS & Medicare along with unemployment tax & be subject to all federal employment regulations. If players are independent contractors, they should be free to go trash their public image by cozying up with the Saudis if they choose to. And while this is being sorted out, maybe we should take a look at their nonprofit status & how much money the tour actually gives to charity vs. providing a fundraising platform for others to give. It is quite a profitable nonprofit Deane Beman fashioned beginning in 1974.