LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[CDM]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:51 PM, jgonz69 said:

If you offered 100 million or a green jacket to Rory, what does he choose?

All day every day. 

 

Take the 100 mikllion

[Long Shot]

4 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Take the 100 mikllion

According to this article a Masters Win is worth 200 million long term with endorsements, and future earnings related to it.

 

https://thespun.com/more/golf/hideki-matsuyama-masters-win-worth

[oikos1]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:46 AM, One Putter said:

I mean, it would be one thing if the Saudis were paying what the product is worth for these tournaments. But they aren't. And that's what makes it such an egregious sham.

Since you put it that way, is it really necessary to have millionaires play millionaires for millions while millionaires watch the millionaires make more millions?

 

Geez man, this is capitalism at it's finest.

[Thayneil]

On 4/28/2022 at 12:22 PM, Mustard_Tiger said:

I would love to see the guys who are taking the Saudi money to trash the Saudi regime while they're at it. Just go full Philly Mick and say they don't like taking dirty money but they're beyond the point of making serious money on the PGA Tour. Give the Saudi's a black eye while taking their filthy lucre.  😀

The Euro tour is sponsored by DP World  which is an arm of  the Abu Dhabi  government/Royal Family

 

The Euro tour is effectively a subsidiary of the PGA Tour

 

not much  difference in regimes for such a difference in policy

[Thayneil]

seems like  the Saudis should buy  the asian tour for loose change and amalgamate  using the Asian tour  as  "cover"

 

 

[stinger_gc]

13 hours ago, Long Shot said:

According to this article a Masters Win is worth 200 million long term with endorsements, and future earnings related to it.

 

https://thespun.com/more/golf/hideki-matsuyama-masters-win-worth

That's crazy! Hideki probably never needs to pay for another steak in Japan (wagyu beef is amazing BTW)

[tacklingdummy]

15 hours ago, Long Shot said:

According to this article a Masters Win is worth 200 million long term with endorsements, and future earnings related to it.

 

https://thespun.com/more/golf/hideki-matsuyama-masters-win-worth

 

Perhaps that is why McIlroy is only worth 170 million. Lol. 

[JRS1939]

At the time, Norman told ESPN on Monday, at least 30% of the top 50 players in the world had committed to play in the new league.

 

"There's no question [Mickelson's comments] hurt," said Norman, a two-time winner of The Open and CEO of LIV Golf Investments. "It hurt a lot of aspects. It hurt the PGA Tour. It hurt us. It hurt the game of golf. It hurt Phil. So yeah, across all fronts. It wasn't just specifically to us. But it definitely created negative momentum against us."

[maverick]

I used to like Greg Norman but he's just about the money. Phil Mickelson has always been a little 'off'.  If I had a chance to get rich playing the game I love the most I would be in heaven. Mickelson is not very gracious to say the least. 

[stinger_gc]

5 hours ago, JRS1939 said:

At the time, Norman told ESPN on Monday, at least 30% of the top 50 players in the world had committed to play in the new league.

 

"There's no question [Mickelson's comments] hurt," said Norman, a two-time winner of The Open and CEO of LIV Golf Investments. "It hurt a lot of aspects. It hurt the PGA Tour. It hurt us. It hurt the game of golf. It hurt Phil. So yeah, across all fronts. It wasn't just specifically to us. But it definitely created negative momentum against us."

I saw this coming from a mile away! Phil is gonna end up killing this thing and I wouldn't be surprised if Phil doesn't even play the LIV event or this entire thing get scrapped. 🤣 

[bscinstnct]

Why the need sell passes for 10k?

 

10k like a nanosecond of Saudi unlimited oil 💰 yo!

 

“The price for LIV’s upcoming London tournament from June 9-11? Try $10,455 for a two-day pass.

 

Norman’s price for the chance to potentially walk the fairways with golf stars like Phil Mickelson or Sergio Garcia is not out of line compared with elite hospitality packages on the PGA Tour.”

 

https://frontofficesports.com/inside-the-ropes-access-greg-norman-liv-golf-hospitality/

 

 

[Ferguson]

Norman is blaming Phil. 

Now that's news.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hammersia]

17 hours ago, JRS1939 said:

At the time, Norman told ESPN on Monday, at least 30% of the top 50 players in the world had committed to play in the new league.

 

"There's no question [Mickelson's comments] hurt," said Norman, a two-time winner of The Open and CEO of LIV Golf Investments. "It hurt a lot of aspects. It hurt the PGA Tour. It hurt us. It hurt the game of golf. It hurt Phil. So yeah, across all fronts. It wasn't just specifically to us. But it definitely created negative momentum against us."

 

I think the more interesting part of Norman's recent comments is the whole "independent contractors" thing.

 

I'm under the impression that the PGA tour has been using that expression for years, but now it will be put to the test legally speaking by many, many lawyers. 

 

Whatever happens with LIV, the consequences for the PGA could be damaging (image rights, pensions etc.) 

[Duct Tape]

20 hours ago, JRS1939 said:

At the time, Norman told ESPN on Monday, at least 30% of the top 50 players in the world had committed to play in the new league.

 

"There's no question [Mickelson's comments] hurt," said Norman, a two-time winner of The Open and CEO of LIV Golf Investments. "It hurt a lot of aspects. It hurt the PGA Tour. It hurt us. It hurt the game of golf. It hurt Phil. So yeah, across all fronts. It wasn't just specifically to us. But it definitely created negative momentum against us."

Norman is such a blowhard, I read this with a cynical view.  His 30% claim is BS and Figjam gave him the opportunity to shift the blame. 
 

If true then GN should post the names. 
 

Signed, Sick of hearing about Norman (and Phil)

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Duct Tape

[rizzo66]

1 hour ago, hammersia said:

 

I think the more interesting part of Norman's recent comments is the whole "independent contractors" thing.

 

I'm under the impression that the PGA tour has been using that expression for years, but now it will be put to the test legally speaking by many, many lawyers. 

 

Whatever happens with LIV, the consequences for the PGA could be damaging (image rights, pensions etc.) 

I love the way Norman keeps throwing around the term independent contractors. The PGA Tour is a member organization that has a right to determine the rules of membership. I spent years battling this issue in The Real Estate Industry and this doesn't come close to violating Independent Contractor rules it does make for good optics though. 

 

[hammersia]

15 minutes ago, rizzo66 said:

I love the way Norman keeps throwing around the term independent contractors. The PGA Tour is a member organization that has a right to determine the rules of membership. I spent years battling this issue in The Real Estate Industry and this doesn't come close to violating Independent Contractor rules it does make for good optics though. 

 

But that was my question really - it's the PGA tour that keeps using the term "independent contractors".

 

Even if you go back few years before the current LIV thing, on the PGA website they call the players ICs:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/04/02/maginnes_wed.html

 

It may start to look like the PGA tour wants them to be ICs when it suits them, or members at other times.

 

If I come and paint your house as an IC, I don't want to be a member of an exclusive house painting club that stops me painting elsewhere. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by hammersia

[ebrasmus21]

28 minutes ago, rizzo66 said:

I love the way Norman keeps throwing around the term independent contractors. The PGA Tour is a member organization that has a right to determine the rules of membership. I spent years battling this issue in The Real Estate Industry and this doesn't come close to violating Independent Contractor rules it does make for good optics though. 

 

Check out the PGAT tax records and look at who are the highest paid contractors of the Tour. 

[CasualLie]

14 hours ago, KizIsTheMan said:

I saw this coming from a mile away! Phil is gonna end up killing this thing and I wouldn't be surprised if Phil doesn't even play the LIV event or this entire thing get scrapped. 🤣 

 

Shouldn't we be giving credit to Alan Shipnuck for blowing up LIV?  Pretty easy to plan on Phil saying something controversial, just let him talk.  Someone check for offshore bank accounts in the name of Ship's wife.

[Ferguson]

 

Interesting choice of terminology for sure.  Norman states this before the first tee shot at the first tourney, as if there was significant positive momentum at some point.  

 

 

 

[fairways4life]

45 minutes ago, hammersia said:

But that was my question really - it's the PGA tour that keeps using the term "independent contractors".

 

Even if you go back few years before the current LIV thing, on the PGA website they call the players ICs:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/04/02/maginnes_wed.html

 

It may start to look like the PGA tour wants them to be ICs when it suits them, or members at other times.

 

If I come and paint your house as an IC, I don't want to be a member of an exclusive house painting club that stops me painting elsewhere. 

 

True, but this can be argued both ways. The players want to be independent contractors when it suits them (so that they can play elsewhere when they want), but members at other times (so they can have access to a fat pension program, receive health insurance through the Tour and a monthly stipend if they get hurt). All of which are benefits that are not traditionally available to independent contractors, but are offered by the PGA Tour. It can be argued that both sides are having their cake and eating it too. 

 

I think where things get interesting is in the differences between Phil and Garrigus. Phil has the status to tee it up in any Tour event (and major) he wants. (Some sort of secret suspension notwithstanding). 

 

But Garrigus is way down on the pecking order with only limited status and isn't eligible to play every week. He needed a sponsors exemption to even play the Zurich and hasn't had full status since like 2018. 

 

So when looking at Phil's case, he's choosing the LIV events over PGA Tour events because he would otherwise be able to tee it up on the PGA Tour for that given week. But with Garrigus, it gets a little more complicated because if he isn't eligible for that week's PGA Tour event, is he really choosing the LIV event "instead" of the PGA Tour? If his status wouldn't get him into the field at say the John Deere Classic for example, then can he really be legally required to not work that week?

 

Page 127 of this PGA Tour handbook details the criteria for playing in other events. https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2019-2020-pga-tour-handbook--regs-09_10_19.pdf 

 

It states:

 

"To contribute to the success of a PGA TOUR tournament or event and to permit PGA TOUR to fulfill its contractual obligations concerning representative fields, no PGA TOUR member shall participate in any other golf tournament or event on a date when a PGA TOUR (Regular TOUR) cosponsored tournament or event for which such member is exempt is scheduled." (then there are some exceptions listed)

 

So if Garrigus isn't exempt for the John Deere Classic (just an example), then is he actually in violation of the guidelines? 

 

I honestly don't know the answer, but I think the legalities may be a little more straightforward with someone like Phil then they would be for someone like Garrigus. Maybe someone can interpret the rule better than I. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by fairways4life

[tacklingdummy]

51 minutes ago, rizzo66 said:

I love the way Norman keeps throwing around the term independent contractors. The PGA Tour is a member organization that has a right to determine the rules of membership. I spent years battling this issue in The Real Estate Industry and this doesn't come close to violating Independent Contractor rules it does make for good optics though. 

 

 

 

Well, it is not just Norman. Rory McIlroy who is on the PGA Player Advisory Council, says they are independent contractors as well. These are all quotes from McIlroy in the beginning of December 2021. Not sure of the exact laws regarding independent contractors, but the players sure want to have the freedom to play anywhere they want, not just Norman. 

 

RORY McILROY:

 

"I think we're independent contractors and we should be able to play where we want to play. So in my opinion I think the Tour should grant releases. It's an Asian Tour event, it's an event that has OWGR rankings, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't."

 

"I do see reasons why they wouldn't grant releases, but I think if they're trying to do what's best for their members and their members are going to a place other than the PGA TOUR and being able to earn that money, I mean, we're independent contractors and I feel like we should be able to do that if that's what our personal choice is.

My personal choice is not to do that, but obviously a lot of players are doing that and I think it's fair to let them do that."

 

"I think the professional game needs to get to a point where we as professionals need to know where we stand. Are we actually independent contractors? Are we employed by a certain entity? That's stuff that's just -- there's a lot of gray area in that and that's what sort of needs to be sorted out, I think."

 

 

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2021/12/1/rory-i-think-were-independent-contractors-and-we-should-be-able-to-play-where-we-want-to-play

 

 

[lowndes]

1 hour ago, hammersia said:

But that was my question really - it's the PGA tour that keeps using the term "independent contractors".

 

Even if you go back few years before the current LIV thing, on the PGA website they call the players ICs:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/04/02/maginnes_wed.html

 

It may start to look like the PGA tour wants them to be ICs when it suits them, or members at other times.

 

If I come and paint your house as an IC, I don't want to be a member of an exclusive house painting club that stops me painting elsewhere. 

 

For all practical purposes it doesn't matter for what is at issue here.  If you come paint my house as an independent contractor then go paint some other house that I don't like then I'm free to never hire you again.  If you are a member of an organization then you must abide by the rules of that organization or can be asked to leave the organization.  But at the end of the day it doesn't matter because legally one can be a member of an organization as well as an independent contractor.

Edited May 3, 2022 by lowndes

[CDM]

31 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

Well, it is not just Norman. Rory McIlroy who is on the PGA Player Advisory Council, says they are independent contractors as well. These are all quotes from McIlroy in the beginning of December 2021. Not sure of the exact laws regarding independent contractors, but the players sure want to have the freedom to play anywhere they want, not just Norman. 

 

RORY McILROY:

 

"I think we're independent contractors and we should be able to play where we want to play. So in my opinion I think the Tour should grant releases. It's an Asian Tour event, it's an event that has OWGR rankings, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't."

 

"I do see reasons why they wouldn't grant releases, but I think if they're trying to do what's best for their members and their members are going to a place other than the PGA TOUR and being able to earn that money, I mean, we're independent contractors and I feel like we should be able to do that if that's what our personal choice is.

My personal choice is not to do that, but obviously a lot of players are doing that and I think it's fair to let them do that."

 

"I think the professional game needs to get to a point where we as professionals need to know where we stand. Are we actually independent contractors? Are we employed by a certain entity? That's stuff that's just -- there's a lot of gray area in that and that's what sort of needs to be sorted out, I think."

 

 

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2021/12/1/rory-i-think-were-independent-contractors-and-we-should-be-able-to-play-where-we-want-to-play

 

 

 

I read that too when it came out.  Then thought t was really odd how he flipped the script so hard on Phil.... maybe he does not like Phil???

 

Either way it shows his character.  Say one thing and 180 if it could make him look bad.   The comment hurts all the other players, or at least the lower ranked ones who are just chasing the dream. 

 

....... I am sure Jay had something to do with it .

Edited May 3, 2022 by CDM

[naval2006]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:30 PM, jmck said:

  Amazing that these people still haven't learned that there are things in life money can't buy.

Never met a pro golfer then. 

[jplroper]

    Greg Norman chucking Phil under the bus, class act. The PGA boss seemed to treat Phil in a more civil manner, obviously don't know how he might have jammed him up behind closed doors. I'm just not  fan of abrasive people, and thats what I consider Greg Norman.

 

[Ferguson]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Never met a pro golfer then. 

 

We can't say Tiger Woods was driven by money.   The money was a result of his success.  

 

 

1 hour ago, jplroper said:

    Greg Norman chucking Phil under the bus, class act. The PGA boss seemed to treat Phil in a more civil manner, obviously don't know how he might have jammed him up behind closed doors. I'm just not  fan of abrasive people, and thats what I consider Greg Norman.

 

 

Phil threw himself under the bus.  Greg is simply keeping him there. 

 

Greg might be a little abrasive, but he's clever.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bad9]

4 hours ago, hammersia said:

But that was my question really - it's the PGA tour that keeps using the term "independent contractors".

 

Even if you go back few years before the current LIV thing, on the PGA website they call the players ICs:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/04/02/maginnes_wed.html

 

It may start to look like the PGA tour wants them to be ICs when it suits them, or members at other times.

 

If I come and paint your house as an IC, I don't want to be a member of an exclusive house painting club that stops me painting elsewhere. 

 

Wouldn't the only thing that matters is what's in the contract players have with the Tour, not the words they use to publicly refer to it?

[billyspan]

23 hours ago, JRS1939 said:

At the time, Norman told ESPN on Monday, at least 30% of the top 50 players in the world had committed to play in the new league.

 

"There's no question [Mickelson's comments] hurt," said Norman, a two-time winner of The Open and CEO of LIV Golf Investments. "It hurt a lot of aspects. It hurt the PGA Tour. It hurt us. It hurt the game of golf. It hurt Phil. So yeah, across all fronts. It wasn't just specifically to us. But it definitely created negative momentum against us."

I call BS on that 30% figure. Shipnuck's notes came out on Thursday of the week of the Genesis.  When was LIV going to make their announcement, buried on a Friday...?

 

 

[billyspan]

4 hours ago, hammersia said:

But that was my question really - it's the PGA tour that keeps using the term "independent contractors".

 

Even if you go back few years before the current LIV thing, on the PGA website they call the players ICs:

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/04/02/maginnes_wed.html

 

It may start to look like the PGA tour wants them to be ICs when it suits them, or members at other times.

 

If I come and paint your house as an IC, I don't want to be a member of an exclusive house painting club that stops me painting elsewhere. 

You mention "a few years" ago, but cite an article from 2008?  Not saying your premise is wrong, just looking for something more recent.

[bscinstnct]

48 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

We can't say Tiger Woods was driven by money.   The money was a result of his success.  

 

 

 

Phil threw himself under the bus.  Greg is simply keeping him there. 

 

Greg might be a little abrasive, but he's clever.