LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[fairways4life]

So according to the article, they are now 

23 hours ago, CaseyC said:

From Sports Illustrated

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-invitational-series-set-to-invite-top-amateurs-pros-will-play-on-per-event-basis

 

Commissioner Greg Norman clarified that no pros will join the league as members this year, but said a full 48-player field will play the first event in June....

 

...Greg Norman on Thursday was set to invite a number of top-ranked amateurs to participate in the LIV Golf Invitational Series tournaments that begin in June,...

 

...the organization has put off its plans to have players join as a competing league to the PGA Tour and DP World Tour for now.

 

So with amateur players now in the mix, that will only increase the payouts to the professionals who are in the field. The purse size remains the same, but instead of distributing that to 48 players you're now only distributing it to 40 players (or 35 or however many amateurs are in the field). 

 

The NIL thing will be interesting because of their deep pockets. They could theoretically pay a college player a million bucks for being in an ad for an event or whatever. 

[Hawkeye77]

Yep, now the "league" is pushed back to 2024 and he is in full retreat.  Now, it's "sequences" - who the _____ uses that term instead of events, lol - he can't even talk in ways people can understand when trying to get out a message.

 

Interesting take and insight on why Norman can't get a meeting with Fred Ridley, let alone anyone else, in the piece linked below.

 

Now he's going to prey upon amateurs with $$$$ under the guise of growing the game.  The guy is disgusting.  I was shattered when Larry Mize pitched it in, haha, now I replay it often!

 

https://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/global_golf_post/20220418/nuge_col.html?utm_source=iowa&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dm-041822

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[CaseyC]

David Letterman:
[introduction to Stupid Pet Tricks and Stupid Human Tricks] This is only an exhibition. This is not a competition. Please, no wagering.

[ChipStrokes]

21 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Now he's going to prey upon amateurs with $$$$ under the guise of growing the game.

amateurs and college golfers are the smartest approach LIV can take.

[Hawkeye77]

26 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

amateurs and college golfers are the smartest approach LIV can take.

 

They can fill out events since apparently they are having trouble getting players, but it's not like they are the "minors" - the true pros are headed for the KFT/PGA Tour, even DP, IMO.

 

I guess I'm not seeing the strategy - I would guess a tiny, tiny % of 1% of all those who play golf and are golf consumers know the name of any college player that isn't a relative of theirs.  It seems like they sign "nobodys", pay them (arguably) lots of money and then who watches?  I don't see them funneling off the future of the PGA Tour, for example, which is what I think this new, "the other idea didn't work out so well", approach is designed to do.

 

 

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

the true pros are headed for the KFT/PGA Tour, even DP, IMO.

unless another league comes along that guarantees them millions up front, rather than the opportunity to maybe earn less money by winning on tour.  

 

you sign the kids coming up to guaranteed money deals, and you starve the PGA tour of talent.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

They can fill out events since apparently they are having trouble getting players, but it's not like they are the "minors" - the true pros are headed for the KFT/PGA Tour, even DP, IMO.

 

I guess I'm not seeing the strategy - I would guess a tiny, tiny % of 1% of all those who play golf and are golf consumers know the name of any college player that isn't a relative of theirs.  It seems like they sign "nobodys", pay them (arguably) lots of money and then who watches?  I don't see them funneling off the future of the PGA Tour, for example, which is what I think this new, "the other idea didn't work out so well", approach is designed to do.

 

 

So the Saudi regime is going to pay big money to unknown athletes... Geez there's no nefarious motives there🤔

 

[smashdn]

The argument being made that sponsors will distance themselves from Saudi Arabia I don't think is a good one.  It is far easier to say (as a company sponsoring a player), "We cannot be a part of the LIV due to the Saudi regime and their history," than it is to say, "look we have had some back room, unofficial conversation with the PGA Tour and we can't have it both ways, sponsoring and getting air time from PGA Tour and be a part of the LIV.  It just makes more sense financially for us to stay with what we know than risk it with the LIV."

 

Not sponsoring a player because they play in SA is a dead argument.  Please see leaderboard here > https://asiantour.com/reports?url=https%3A%2F%2Fasian.ocs-asia.com%2Ftic%2Ftmresult.cgi%3Ftourn%3DSI22~season%3D2022~result%3DPF~&id=2022&code=SI22&title=Final Result <.  Any of these guys getting dropped for playing in this event?

 

I just don't think it is about playing there and the social implications of it as much as it is a business decision based upon allegiance with PGA Tour.  The social implications are a far more convenient excuse and easier reason to give than your deals made with the PGA Tour.

 

That being said, I don't think the LIV will get off the ground.  The PGA Tour is calling in all favors and ratcheting up the pressure to quash it.

 

That is my $.02.

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

So the Saudi regime is going to pay big money to unknown athletes... Geez there's no nefarious motives there🤔

 

 

It seems so overtly predatory that I just can't believe it can succeed.  So you guarantee $$$$ to no-names, have a bunch locked up and then who do they test themselves against?  Lee Westwood? Where's the name recognition?  Where are the accomplishments?  They aren't getting into WGC's or majors (other than qualifying for those they can qualify for), they aren't marketable in the sense that other than getting the Saudi check, what have they got?  Most aren't anything until they come up through the ranks and starting a "career" in the Saudi team league won't accomplish much, IMO.

 

I don't see money being the answer to everything and that's all this Saudi league has ever been about.  

 

So now Greg is "growing the game" by preying upon young college golfers and stalling the launch of the league (yet again) because nobody worth watching will play in it.  It's like "hey Saudi guys, I'll need another two years to figure out some other way to get some good players."

 

I love that nobody with golf's major players will give him the time of day - I think they have a better idea than he does of who has leverage and who doesn't.

 

 

[CaseyC]

28 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

 

 

you sign the kids coming up to guaranteed money deals, and you starve the PGA tour of talent.

 

What makes you believe Norman can pick out the few who would make it on the PGA tour from the many who wouldn't?

[ChipStrokes]

30 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

 

What makes you believe Norman can pick out the few who would make it on the PGA tour from the many who wouldn't?

well it doesn't really seem hard.  the top amateur golfers are pretty well known, and there's absolutely 0 guarantee that they'll earn so much as a dollar on the PGA tour.  

 

a million or two up front is life changing money.

 

even if it wasn't easy to identify the right amateurs, the saudis don't seem to have any issue with playing the numbers game.

[fairways4life]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

The argument being made that sponsors will distance themselves from Saudi Arabia I don't think is a good one.  It is far easier to say (as a company sponsoring a player), "We cannot be a part of the LIV due to the Saudi regime and their history," than it is to say, "look we have had some back room, unofficial conversation with the PGA Tour and we can't have it both ways, sponsoring and getting air time from PGA Tour and be a part of the LIV.  It just makes more sense financially for us to stay with what we know than risk it with the LIV."

 

Not sponsoring a player because they play in SA is a dead argument.  Please see leaderboard here > https://asiantour.com/reports?url=https%3A%2F%2Fasian.ocs-asia.com%2Ftic%2Ftmresult.cgi%3Ftourn%3DSI22~season%3D2022~result%3DPF~&id=2022&code=SI22&title=Final Result <.  Any of these guys getting dropped for playing in this event?

 

I just don't think it is about playing there and the social implications of it as much as it is a business decision based upon allegiance with PGA Tour.  The social implications are a far more convenient excuse and easier reason to give than your deals made with the PGA Tour.

 

That being said, I don't think the LIV will get off the ground.  The PGA Tour is calling in all favors and ratcheting up the pressure to quash it.

 

That is my $.02.

 

Not the same as being "dropped," but RBC takes their logo off DJ's shirt and bag when he plays in the Saudi Invitational. 

 

I agree with the first part of your point --- that it's not really about the morality of it. But what I think is the ultimate deciding factor is the public relations backlash. In other words, if the sponsors could maintain those partnerships and come out relatively unscathed, most probably would. At the end of the day, sponsors like exposure just as much as players like money. 

 

The Saudi Invitational is not directly funded by the Saudi government, which is not the case with the SGL. And that seems to be what the golf community has decided is the dividing line (fairly or unfairly) for what's only sort of not good vs. what's really not good. 

 

Harold Varner played in (and won) the Saudi Invitational. He's not being dragged through the mud for it. I think a lot of people would rather see him not play in it but at the end of the day his reputation didn't take a massive blow. And corporations know this. They keep a tight pulse on this kind of stuff. 

 

Meanwhile, anyone who is even rumored to be on board with the SGL is poison in the public eye, and sponsors know this as well. And of course they all know what went down with Phil. 

 

I agree with your overall point though that the morality of it is probably not the actual reason for a sponsor exiting a contract. Most would probably gladly have their cake and eat it too if they could. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, ChipStrokes said:

well it doesn't really seem hard.  the top amateur golfers are pretty well known, and there's absolutely 0 guarantee that they'll earn so much as a dollar on the PGA tour.  

 

a million or two up front is life changing money.

 

even if it wasn't easy to identify the right amateurs, the saudis don't seem to have any issue with playing the numbers game.

 

This will be interesting.

 

A truly top am, from what I see, starts to get invites to tour events and sponsors lined up as they transition. 
 

Look at Spieth. In his first full season, he made close to 4MM. In just a few short years, he had built up 20MM + in endorsement income a year.

 

Would the NextYJS trade this potential path and life on the tour, for 20MM up front and 20MM a year in earnings alone?

 

Very possibly.

 

But, the pga tour is, if you perform, is a proven path to 20MM + income. And with the added bump in fedex money, the 4 new potential “funny money” events, the pip, and the your being motivated to take care of performers,

 

Do you walk away for Greg Normans Saudi golf tour?

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

This will be interesting.

 

A truly top am, from what I see, starts to get invites to tour events and sponsors lined up as they transition. 
 

Look at Spieth. In his first full season, he made close to 4MM. In just a few short years, he had built up 20MM + in endorsement income a year.

 

Would the NextYJS trade this potential path and life on the tour, for 20MM up front and 20MM a year in earnings alone?

 

Very possibly.

 

But, the pga tour is, if you perform, is a proven path to 20MM + income. And with the added bump in fedex money, the 4 new potential “funny money” events, the pip, and the your being motivated to take care of performers,

 

Do you walk away for Greg Normans Saudi golf tour?

 

 

 

But the example is "the" player that fits that possibility, and maybe there are one or two others, but "top" college players in general?  They may take the money from the Saudis just to take the money, and very well make the decision the rest of the golf career as defined by the history of professional golf is likely irrelevant and be happy with that, but then . . . so what?  That will have no impact on the PGA Tour.  It remains to be seen how much of any kind of threat this really is anyway -- I mean just because Greg Norman says they are up to something (1) may not mean they are up to anything, or (2) are approaching it the wrong way, lol.

 

They start paying obscene amounts of money to college kids via NIL and it becomes obvious that is their "pro" payoff for showing up at "sequences" and I'd expect changes to NIL rules pretty darn quick or interpretations they are de facto or actual pros.  Can't have that cake . . . Count on Norman (is he now just the "Commish"?) to screw up some kid's college and pro career, though.

 

The Tour is already a bit ahead of the game with PGA Tour University, but that is to allow access to the overall PGA Tour structure here and elsewhere.

 

Problem with the Saudis will always be their behavior really has little to do with normal market strategies - just toss obscene amounts of money out there to buy people for reasons I won't elaborate upon.  Don't see either of those in combination as sustainable.

 

Like the Emperor, and as we've unfortunately seen way too much of already before all this, Greg Norman has no clothes!

Edited April 18, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[grm24]

3 hours ago, fairways4life said:

The Saudi Invitational is not directly funded by the Saudi government, which is not the case with the SGL.

Hmmm.....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_International_(golf)

 

The Saudi International (branded as the PIF Saudi International powered by SoftBank Investment Advisers for sponsorship reasons) is an Asian Tour golf tournament held at Royal Greens Golf & Country Club in King Abdullah Economic City, Saudi Arabia.^]

 

The title sponsor of the tournament is Public Investment Fund, a Saudi government sovereign wealth fund.

[fairways4life]

44 minutes ago, grm24 said:

Hmmm.....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_International_(golf)

 

The Saudi International (branded as the PIF Saudi International powered by SoftBank Investment Advisers for sponsorship reasons) is an Asian Tour golf tournament held at Royal Greens Golf & Country Club in King Abdullah Economic City, Saudi Arabia.^]

 

The title sponsor of the tournament is Public Investment Fund, a Saudi government sovereign wealth fund.

 

If that's true I'll stand corrected. I always understood the Saudi Invitational as not being funded by the regime but it appears that may not be the case(?). Between the PGL and the SGL and the LIV and the PIF it's become difficult to keep all the Saudi stuff and the various acronyms straight. 

[Rob G 89]

First confirmed player to ask permission Robert Garrigus

source

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/7363017001

[Duct Tape]

48 minutes ago, Rob G 89 said:

First confirmed player to ask permission Robert Garrigus

source

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/7363017001

Wow, Norman is set.  Things looking up for LIV, way up. 

[Gdane]

1 hour ago, Rob G 89 said:

First confirmed player to ask permission Robert Garrigus

source

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/7363017001

[fairways4life]

2 hours ago, Rob G 89 said:

First confirmed player to ask permission Robert Garrigus

source

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/7363017001

 

Deadline to apply is April 25th. Should make for an interesting week as more names should be dropping in the coming days.

[wildcatden]

3 hours ago, Rob G 89 said:

First confirmed player to ask permission Robert Garrigus

source

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/7363017001

 

"Garrigus, 44, joined the PGA Tour in 2006. He has one career victory, the Children’s Miracle Network Classic in 2010, and has not made the field in a major championship since 2013. He has made just four starts this season, with his best finish a tie for 16th at the AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am. He last played a full season on Tour in 2017-18. His last top-10 finish came at the Farmers Insurance Open four years ago. Since then, he has earned $320,597."

 

Garrigus looking to ride off into the sunset. We all knew these were coming. Who had Garrigus on their bingo card?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by wildcatden

[tacklingdummy]

16 hours ago, fairways4life said:

So according to the article, they are now 

 

So with amateur players now in the mix, that will only increase the payouts to the professionals who are in the field. The purse size remains the same, but instead of distributing that to 48 players you're now only distributing it to 40 players (or 35 or however many amateurs are in the field). 

 

The NIL thing will be interesting because of their deep pockets. They could theoretically pay a college player a million bucks for being in an ad for an event or whatever. 

 

The pros can make tons of cash. Probably the easiest money they ever made if they just sign up. Heck, it is almost worth it for amateurs to turn pro just for the events if they have a chance to win millions of dollars. 48 player field is nothing. They can possibly be able to fund their own pro golf careers in the future. It is a big strange turn of events that LIV did not get enough pros to play. PGA tour is definitely flexing their muscles to not allow players to play other events. 

 

 

[tacklingdummy]

On 4/16/2022 at 5:52 AM, bscinstnct said:

 

Check this out.

 

“Exclusive: PGA Tour to launch guaranteed money events for top stars, team format possible

 

The PGA Tour plans to create a series of lucrative, international tournaments that will offer guaranteed money to the world’s best players, Golfweek can reveal.

The Tour intends to stage between four and six events annually outside of the United States, in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.”
 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/11/11/pga-tour-launch-guaranteed-money-events-for-top-stars/

 

 

 

 

 

So, what are the lower ranked PGA players (that are losing money, breaking even, or making very little money) going to think about only the top players getting guaranteed money? This may cause some discontent among the lower ranked players.

 

The lower ranked players are still top players in the world playing the PGA tour and are part of the show. Any given week they can win.  It is not like they just started playing golf. If you really look at the talent level, experience, and skill between the top players in the world and the players ranked on the bubble at 150-200, there is very little difference if you saw them play in person. Most would be extremely amazed watching them play in person. 

[MattyO1984]

Three things:-

 

1. Robert Garrigus - I was certain LIV would be scrapping the barrel but a 44 year old outwith the world top 1000 means that they are scrapping a barrel of paint thinner as opposed to oil;

2. I hope Robert has checked the travel restrictions, he's had some issues with that in the past; and

3. Robert, stay away from the cannabis in Saudi, heard that their penal system might be a little on the extreme side of things.

[fairways4life]

You know you're a nobody when even the pgatour.com player directory doesn't even know who you are.

 

[Hawkeye77]

Kind of chicken you know what if Norman’s idea of announcing players is their applying for releases - guess we’ll see if this getting out beat his alleged plans to reveal or moves up his timetable (if he really had one). 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

20 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Kind of chicken you know what if Norman’s idea of announcing players is their applying for releases - guess we’ll see if this getting out beat his alleged plans to reveal or moves up his timetable (if he really had one). 

Well all it takes is three more "has been" journeyman and he's got a foursome for his sportswashing, puppet show. It's on track to be a smashing success! 🤣🤣🤣

Edited April 19, 2022 by BlackDiamondPar5

[ChipStrokes]

i mean it’s happening exactly like we thought (and they said) it would. 

 

it’s gonna be a few journeyman no-names looking for a cash grab, and a host of asian tour and amateur players. 

 

i think years 2 and 3 of LIV look a lot different than whatever the first iteration is. 

 

if robert garrigus is stuffing his pockets with 5M for 8 events, guys are gonna take notice. 

[Danielson]

5 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

So, what are the lower ranked PGA players (that are losing money, breaking even, or making very little money) going to think about only the top players getting guaranteed money? This may cause some discontent among the lower ranked players.

 

The lower ranked players are still top players in the world playing the PGA tour and are part of the show. Any given week they can win.  It is not like they just started playing golf. If you really look at the talent level, experience, and skill between the top players in the world and the players ranked on the bubble at 150-200, there is very little difference if you saw them play in person. Most would be extremely amazed watching them play in person. 

 

How is it different than any other sport? Deshaun Watson just got a truckload of money guaranteed, while backup QBs don't. Backup QBs are capable of winning games, or even super bowls (Nick Foles)... but they don't get the big bucks because they're not a weekly performer.

[One Putter]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

i mean it’s happening exactly like we thought (and they said) it would. 

 

it’s gonna be a few journeyman no-names looking for a cash grab, and a host of asian tour and amateur players. 

 

i think years 2 and 3 of LIV look a lot different than whatever the first iteration is. 

 

if robert garrigus is stuffing his pockets with 5M for 8 events, guys are gonna take notice. 

Yeah, until you do something they dont like and they invent a reason to "detain" you in their country like they did with the F1 guys. But sure, short sighted cash grabs always work out perfect.

 

Have fun with those Saudi millions though! I'm sure they'll never ask you to shamelessly plug their propaganda or do anything that would ruin your reputation back home.

Edited April 19, 2022 by One Putter