LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[PorkChopExpress]

Still wonder who’s bailing 

Enough of a contingent and the snowball is rolling 

[NoCalHack]

This whole thing is really interesting.  Without infusing my personal opinion into human rights, this is all going to come down to court.

 

There will be a lawsuit.  Either from a player who goes to the LIV tourney and gets banned.  Or from a player that requests a release to go play, and is denied.  The lawsuit will completely determine what happens to the tour.  You can hear legal opinions both ways.  My friend who is an attorney thinks is a slam dunk for the PGA tour.  But obviously there are other opinions.  

 

If the lawsuits fail and the PGA has a right to ban people for playing the LIV tourneys, then the tourneys will never ever get top players or young up and coming players.  And sooner or later, the LIV tour will downsize or go away.  Why risk it?  It will be almost impossible to get into majors, even if world ranking points are rewarded.  The sponsorship money will be limited.  And the LIV tour will be really tenuous.  Even the Saudis cannot afford to put out Player's championship purses for journeymen that nobody wants to watch.   What happens if the tour dies and the PGA tour ban stays?  Or what happens if you are relegated from one of the 48 spots?  And what feeds the tour?  The LIV tour has no chance if the PGA can ban.

 

However, if the lawsuits find the PGA has no right to ban players, then it will get way more viable.  Plenty of top players are going to play.  Not Rory or JT, but just look at who played in the Saudi Open.  All those guys are going to play.

 

While the ban issue gets sorted out in court, these ridiculous purses are going to be really tempting for guys at the later stage of their career who are done playing for legacy.  Think guys like Westwood, Poulter.  Even guys like Adam Scott.  They are basically offering limited field events with purses bigger than the Players.  It is going to be really really tempting if you are a guy like that and see all that money being thrown around.  

 

 

[Duct Tape]

26 minutes ago, PorkChopExpress said:

Still wonder who’s bailing 

Enough of a contingent and the snowball is rolling 

You’re right. We live in interesting times. 

[Hawkeye77]

On 3/18/2022 at 9:51 AM, macnewma said:

I spoke to a couple of well connected friends (agents and tour reps) and got some more stuff on Phil.

 

So Phil isn't banned. Technically. The Tour has basically communicated to Phil's team that if Phil attempts to enter a tour event then his entrance application will be rejected. This is currently indefinite with no specific method or steps for Phil to earn his way back on. They will likely hold this over his head until he comes out with a real apology and outright rejects the SGL.

 

The issue, not completely confirmed, is that Phil, unlike the other 3, has already entered into a contract with LIV. I don't have any information on the details of this contract, but DJ, Bryson and Koepka had signed nothing. They may have been close, but it was just heavy flirting.

 

Concerning Augusta, he will not being playing there this year. The Masters is a bit opaque about their exemptions and their ability to revoke entrance (Phil obviously qualifies with his win at Kiawah last year). Similar to the PGA Tour, Augusta has basically told Phil's team he isn't welcome so don't try to show up.

Phil's issues are also more extensive than just SGL/LIV the Shipnuck quotes etc. He isn't "broke" but he isn't in great shape. His marriage is on the rocks as Amy caught him again. His gambling and spending have eaten into their finances so badly that a divorce would destroy him. Hence the likely $25-100 million up front from the Saudis with an equity stake going forward.

Phil also burnt a couple of his major sponsors prior to the Shipnuck quotes. I won't go into details but his behavior was unacceptable and said sponsors were looking for a way out. His behavior has been rather erratic for the past year or so and my contacts couldn't explain it. Almost as though he has a drug or drinking problem but they didn't think it was either. Anyway, this behavior is what fractured the sponsor relationships first.

 

----------------------

 

So it all comes down to Phil being stuck. Phil might actually be on the hook to play in these events which means it would be Phil vs a bunch of Asian Tour nobodies. DJ, Bryson and Koepka were the biggest names under 50 with major exemptions for the next 4-5 years. The idea was that they could have those 4 big names and a few older guys like Westwood and Poulter for the first year. The money would be huge, they would get a worldwide streaming deal and then guys like Rahm, Rory, Morikawa, JT and Spieth would jump ship (the risk for the younger guys is much bigger). These original 4 would stand to make billions on the equity and potentially ~$100 million cash the first year up front.

 

It actually had the potential for success even if it was a long shot. It needed the 4 big name major winners for year 1 so they could get a streaming deal. The streaming deal and high level competition would be needed for endorsement viability. Then the young guys would jump for year 2. The PGA Tour would have to capitulate and let players play in the SGL or lose the top young guys entirely and become a 2nd tier league.

 

When Rahm, Rory and Morikawa said they would never leave, combined with seeing Phil lose sponsors, the younger 3 guys got scared. The SGL is 100 pct stillborn at this point. They might still hold events to save face and they may already have the money spent and contracts in place for these events. But without the 4 big names it is dead.

 

----------------------

 

At this point, Phil is in a purgatory where even Callaway isn't going to pay him unless he starts playing PGA Tour events again (yes, there are exit clauses that can be enabled if a player doesn't play enough on Tour or causes harm to the sponsor...the flip side is that if his likeness is used in ongoing marketing they have to pay him). The pause is real in that Callaway isn't interested in giving up on Phil yet, but they aren't paying him.

 

So Phil needs to find a way out of his contract with the SGL. The ideal situation for Phil would be for the SGL to be in breach by going defunct before the first tournament Phil is obligated to play in. Phil might also be able to find a way for the SGL to release him from his contract (either a clause or an agreed release).

Now if Phil can't get out of his contract prior to his first tournament obligation with the SGL, we will likely never see Phil play on the PGA Tour or Champions Tour again. He might still be able to play in the 4 majors while he has exemptions (the PGA Championship is separate from the Tour).

 

Anyway, that is why Phil's apology letter was written the way it was. He is 100% in with the Saudis for the time being.

No comment on the litany of unsubstantiated rumors in this post except surprised that they are allowed especially a couple of claims about his personal life -- anonymous "trust me I'm in the know" type stuff seems a bit below the belt.  Otherwise, source it and let the world judge its credibility.

 

As for the Masters, lol, he qualifies, and obviously so, because he is a past champion.  

[Bad9]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:38 PM, straightshot7 said:

Maybe this is all true (although not backed by any actual sources/facts), but I for one will say I don't believe most of it.

 

I don't have the facts/evidence either. But, I highly doubt Phil is in trouble financially.

 

He is a lot of things but I don't think he is stupid. Not stupid enough to be in trouble financially with $1.075 billion (No. 11 all-time according to Sportico: https://boardroom.tv/phil-mickelson-earnings-endorsements/) in career earnings.

 

Also the accusations about his marriage...heavy accusations.

 

But I guess it is easy to make these claims when they are done anonymously using anonymous sources.

 

Again, you could be right, but it also wouldn't be the first time anonymous sources were completely wrong about a public figure.

 

He's a gambler. That takes all rational thought out of his decision making.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

No comment on the litany of unsubstantiated rumors in this post except surprised that they are allowed especially a couple of claims about his personal life -- anonymous "trust me I'm in the know" type stuff seems a bit below the belt.  Otherwise, source it and let the world judge its credibility.

 

As for the Masters, lol, he qualifies, and obviously so, because he is a past champion.  

Reporters often use confidential sources. As does law enforcement with confidential informants.  As for the post you question, one of the first claims has been validated-- He said Phil would not be playing Augusta this year a full 5 days before it was announced. Lucky guess? 

[CDM]

LOL the angst in this thread is just to funny. 

 

Is there one person on this thread that plays on the PGA tour and the potentinal formation of a competitive league would effect?   Doubtful but dont want to say there is not as you never know......

 

Truth is and we / most knew golf was dying 3 years ago and thanks to a wold wide pandemic and people saying "no I am working" and we all know most were not they decided to get back into golf becuase ....why not, your not working during the day and have 6 hours to waste while colleting a pay check  😃 . 

 

The PGA tour average age they note is 65 that watches golf.....seem high but okay. Do the math the market will dye if something does not change interest. 

 

NOW I am sure many would be happy on getting tee times again if the pandemic golfers went away but a dying market means far worse overall. 

 

Competition and change is not a bad thing. 

[Holy Moses]

5 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Reporters often use confidential sources. As does law enforcement with confidential informants.  As for the post you question, one of the first claims has been validated-- He said Phil would not be playing Augusta this year a full 5 days before it was announced. Lucky guess? 

A lot of people said that, but that poster was the only person that said Phil got into the Masters by winning the PGA Championship. If you expect us to believe what we don’t know, you can’t be wrong on the things we do know.

[ProStryker]

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

[Holy Moses]

3 hours ago, ProStryker said:

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

The Ryder Cup is popular because it’s a team event. SGL trying to capture that, but their teams change every week.

[tacklingdummy]

3 hours ago, ProStryker said:

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

 

But both individual and team events are going simultaneously. It does give a new dynamic to a tournament. I think it really adds more pressure and motivation to win more money especially for the later groups. A player in the later groups may not be in contention for the individual title, but perhaps has to perform well on the last holes to insure a team money title win. Lots of money riding on both individual and team aspects.  However, I am not sure how the team aspect will work if they have a season long team money rankings because some players may not play all 8 events. 

[PorkChopExpress]

If the money is all up front, without sponsors, TV etc... 

Then it's simply a playground, not sure if they mentioning it does not interfere with the majors is their way of saying come along and make some money on the side. 

Or if it truly is a middle finger to the tour lol

 

PGA requires the TV deal and sponsors so it'll be interesting to see what happens. 

 

Wonder if Norman is playing at Augusta, oh wait, he doesn't have lifetime exemption for choking the biggest lead ever lol

[bladehunter]

More I listen to the golf world.  The more I might side with Phil. I’m not there yet. But. The Westwood / Eamon Lynch / LPGA hypocrisy Twitter spat has opened my eyes to just how much some of those who are griping about the Saudi’s care.   

[golfandfishing]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

More I listen to the golf world.  The more I might side with Phil. I’m not there yet. But. The Westwood / Eamon Lynch / LPGA hypocrisy Twitter spat has opened my eyes to just how much some of those who are griping about the Saudi’s care.   

Blade I don’t think I actually care where the money comes from. PGA Tour sponsors have killed plenty of folks and have left millions of lives in ruin as they performed layoffs, steamrolled Main Street, paid off lawmakers and countless other sins that are just easily considered atrocities. The part that I didn’t like was the attack Phil waged on the pga tour. It wasn’t genuine and maybe most detrimental is that it wasn’t necessary. If the SGL had just started out as “7 limited field 54 hole events meant to expose new markets to golf” they had a chance. But they positioned it as an attempt to take down the pga and European tours. The “blood money” angle is just an easy counter attack to this. I think the most recent revelation of the small, kind of blah and mostly uninspired schedule is a retreat from the original position of the SGL being some sort of alternative tour after they got soundly beaten down. Plan A fell apart, plan B was stupid, plan C was worse so they went with plan D, which is what we have in 7 events with a shotgun start at courses that no one is that interested in. This isn’t a threat to either tour and if it had been the original plan I think they could have done it. The pga and euro tours would have leaned on them in terms of timing, every player could have gotten 3 or 4 releases to play and these would have been basically the reincarnation of the old silly season of Skins Game, The Johnnie Walker, etc.

 

 

But they chose to wage war instead. 

[DON SVO]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

More I listen to the golf world.  The more I might side with Phil. I’m not there yet. But. The Westwood / Eamon Lynch / LPGA hypocrisy Twitter spat has opened my eyes to just how much some of those who are griping about the Saudi’s care.   

 

I've mentioned it before, but if... IF... the his real intent was as he said: leverage the SGL to get better benefits for the PGAT players, I am 100% on board. The problem for Phil is he spoke candidly to someone who had no issues publishing what was said, and it put the PGA, SGL, and a lot of sponsors in a tough spot. The rest of the Tour players are going to clam up or pooh pooh the SGL after Phil got crucified, even if there really were other big name Tour Player/SGL contract negotiations and that the overwhelming majority of what was said is pretty spot on.

[Goldenhawk]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:26 PM, ProStryker said:

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

If I wanted to see team golf played on a regular basis, I can just watch my kid who plays in the PGA Junior League

[Holy Moses]

Anyone want to play?

 

 

 

[jmck]

12 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Anyone want to play?

 

 

 

Bunch golf golfwrx four handicappers licking their lips at all that guaranteed money 🤣

[bladehunter]

6 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Blade I don’t think I actually care where the money comes from. PGA Tour sponsors have killed plenty of folks and have left millions of lives in ruin as they performed layoffs, steamrolled Main Street, paid off lawmakers and countless other sins that are just easily considered atrocities. The part that I didn’t like was the attack Phil waged on the pga tour. It wasn’t genuine and maybe most detrimental is that it wasn’t necessary. If the SGL had just started out as “7 limited field 54 hole events meant to expose new markets to golf” they had a chance. But they positioned it as an attempt to take down the pga and European tours. The “blood money” angle is just an easy counter attack to this. I think the most recent revelation of the small, kind of blah and mostly uninspired schedule is a retreat from the original position of the SGL being some sort of alternative tour after they got soundly beaten down. Plan A fell apart, plan B was stupid, plan C was worse so they went with plan D, which is what we have in 7 events with a shotgun start at courses that no one is that interested in. This isn’t a threat to either tour and if it had been the original plan I think they could have done it. The pga and euro tours would have leaned on them in terms of timing, every player could have gotten 3 or 4 releases to play and these would have been basically the reincarnation of the old silly season of Skins Game, The Johnnie Walker, etc.

 

 

But they chose to wage war instead. 

Yep.  I’m absolutely a slow digester sometimes. But I come around eventually. You’re not wrong on any point there.  And heck.  They’re still beating us down on dead Main Street.  If I’m honest.  I took a beating yesterday when I paid for a materials order , from the last local supplier.  135 % increase year over year for the exact same order. I pulled it and looked.  If I’m lying I’ll eat my hat.  Thanks  DuPont.  

[Bad9]

6 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

The part that I didn’t like was the attack Phil waged on the pga tour. It wasn’t genuine and maybe most detrimental is that it wasn’t necessary.

 

To me and from what I have read and seen, including the PGA Tour guys who have commented, is that Phil was being concerned for Phil and his pocket book. It's obvious that Pat Perez didn't think Phil was concerned with benefits for the other PGA Tour pros but that if he was he would support him but that he thought Phil was in it for Phil.

[Hawkeye77]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:26 PM, ProStryker said:

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

And shotgun starts! LOL. 

[bscinstnct]

I wonder when the first player lawsuits against the tour will come

 

I could see a contingent of aging/lower ranked owgr Euro players doing a lawsuit.

 

If the LIV foots the bill, could get pretty messy. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by bscinstnct

[BlackDiamondPar5]

7 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Blade I don’t think I actually care where the money comes from. PGA Tour sponsors have killed plenty of folks and have left millions of lives in ruin as they performed layoffs, steamrolled Main Street, paid off lawmakers and countless other sins that are just easily considered atrocities. The part that I didn’t like was the attack Phil waged on the pga tour. It wasn’t genuine and maybe most detrimental is that it wasn’t necessary. If the SGL had just started out as “7 limited field 54 hole events meant to expose new markets to golf” they had a chance. But they positioned it as an attempt to take down the pga and European tours. The “blood money” angle is just an easy counter attack to this. I think the most recent revelation of the small, kind of blah and mostly uninspired schedule is a retreat from the original position of the SGL being some sort of alternative tour after they got soundly beaten down. Plan A fell apart, plan B was stupid, plan C was worse so they went with plan D, which is what we have in 7 events with a shotgun start at courses that no one is that interested in. This isn’t a threat to either tour and if it had been the original plan I think they could have done it. The pga and euro tours would have leaned on them in terms of timing, every player could have gotten 3 or 4 releases to play and these would have been basically the reincarnation of the old silly season of Skins Game, The Johnnie Walker, etc.

 

 

But they chose to wage war instead. 

While I agree in part that large corporations and Wall St are fleecing America and Main Street, I do find it troubling that anyone would use this as rationalization to sidle up to the brutal SA regime. 

 

Let's ask ourselves, how can they throw such big money at athletes when they don't even have media contracts? Isn't the objective to make money?  If they can't make money then why do it at all? Shouldn't we be at least a little suspect of their motives?  I am suspect and I say that the SGL is buying sports pawns and making money isn't important. The real reason is to divert attention away from what SA regime has done to its own people.  The fact remains that the SA regime has a time-honored practice of diversion – convincing radicals to go after other targets like the USA and the free world--- hit soft targets and innocent people.  Thanks to that we got over 3,000 innocent people murdered on US soil on 9-11.  The SGL league is just another diversionary tactic and we shouldn't forget the body count from such diversion.

[golfandfishing]

11 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

While I agree in part that large corporations and Wall St are fleecing America and Main Street, I do find it troubling that anyone would use this as rationalization to sidle up to the brutal SA regime. 

 

Let's ask ourselves, how can they throw such big money at athletes when they don't even have media contracts? Isn't the objective to make money?  If they can't make money then why do it at all? Shouldn't we be at least a little suspect of their motives?  I am suspect and I say that the SGL is buying sports pawns and making money isn't important. The real reason is to divert attention away from what SA regime has done to its own people.  The fact remains that the SA regime has a time-honored practice of diversion – convincing radicals to go after other targets like the USA and the free world--- hit soft targets and innocent people.  Thanks to that we got over 3,000 innocent people murdered on US soil on 9-11.  The SGL league is just another diversionary tactic and we shouldn't forget the body count from such diversion.

Very valid point indeed. I’ll point out that US Corporations aren’t just fleecing people. They do indeed willingly, knowingly end lives. They don’t use terroristic methods to do so but plenty of corporations take a death toll in account when developing products. These companies fund the PGA Tour on a regular basis.  How do we decide that one is clearly not ok….but why is the other just fine?  

[Golfer4Life]

I'm a golf fan and a player, not a politician. I'm interested to see something different than the usual stuff week in and week out.

 

If I don't like the product I'm free not to watch it, is that simple.

 

Phil went about it, perhaps the wrong way, but it doesn't mean the product is not worth trying.

[Johnnypenso]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:26 PM, ProStryker said:

Does anyone really care about, or want to see team golf, or a team component? I for one could care less about the team aspect of it. I want to see what individual golfers do.  I can see that on the PGAT.  I don’t think think a team component does anything to help the SGL.   But that’s just me…

I thought the team concept was the most intriguing part of the PGL & LIV Golf proposals. I think having players moving in and out of teams every event and a draft system like LIV is proposing is not the way to go as it's tough to develop any affinity for a team if the players are changing all the time. A properly run team concept has a great many opportunities for the kinds of strategy you only see in other team sports that might make viewing a lot more interesting.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Johnnypenso
spelling error

[ProStryker]

It’s interesting that it is supposed to be an invitational tournament, but they want everyone to apply….  Lol…. 

[Holy Moses]

LIV Investments throwing all this cash around, but the league will lose money. Even though I’m a huge golf fan, golf and pro golfers just aren’t interesting enough to bring a return on this kind of investment. Golf isn’t interesting enough to pay out $25 million for 8 weeks. The personalities and athleticism doesn’t justify that. Not one single player is actually going to bring a golf profit to LIV. That has to be somewhat embarrassing. But we all know that LIV is not currently and might not ever care if they turn a golf profit. 

[kasting333]

On 3/22/2022 at 2:32 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Concerning Augusta, he will not being playing there this year. The Masters is a bit opaque about their exemptions and their ability to revoke entrance (Phil obviously qualifies with his win at Kiawah last year). Similar to the PGA Tour, Augusta has basically told Phil's team he isn't welcome so don't try to show up.

Lol what? 
 

Frankly, this makes the rest of your post look made up. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

10 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

LIV Investments throwing all this cash around, but the league will lose money. Even though I’m a huge golf fan, golf and pro golfers just aren’t interesting enough to bring a return on this kind of investment. Golf isn’t interesting enough to pay out $25 million for 8 weeks. The personalities and athleticism doesn’t justify that. Not one single player is actually going to bring a golf profit to LIV. That has to be somewhat embarrassing. But we all know that LIV is not currently and might not ever care if they turn a golf profit. 

Exactly. Anyone involved should be asking "what's their motive to throw all this money around if they don't turn a profit?" 

 

Additionally, just because there's big money to be paid out doesn't mean golf fans will even care.  Lets for example look at the TV ratings and Golf WRX interest in the majors vs the FedEx cup playoffs. Simply put the FedEx Cup TV ratings and WRX chatter is weak compared to any major despite the big money. 

 

I didn't take time to chart the ratings, but here are the WRX pages generated for each of the last majors plus the FedEx cup events.  All the FedEx Cup threads combined don't even equal the least talked about major.  Lesson? Fans don't care about how much money is being played for. They care about tradition --- the majors.