LIV with some big money announcements (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[PorkChopExpress]

The PGA is a grind. Beyond the top players, there’s continual churn with endless pool of players. 
 

Wonder along the lines of others 

Lefty is going. While he does want the US Open, his time has passed, he ain’t ever winning it

 

[BenSeattle]

9 hours ago, tgws said:

Norman did create the Presidents Cup, maybe very slight assist to N. Price, but backhanded compliment, this event could easily go away without anyone knowing

 

Hmmmm...I'm not sure I quite buy this.  My recollection is that Tim Finchem, seeing the MASSIVE popularity of the Ryder Cup (which had NO association with the PGA except for players) wanted to create an event that his Tour would own.  Voila.... The President's Cup.  

 

By the way, wouldn't it be nice to start a sports entity with the following: we don't need to be profitable, we don't need a TV deal, we don't need sponsors, we don't need spectators, we don't need media coverage, we don't need to be popular and we don't need to fill a need.  Because we have unlimited deep pockets from people who don't actually care about golf.  What they DO care about is getting the masses to "don't look there, look over here."  Some "Business Model" from the self-proclaimed tycoon, Greg Norman.

 

 

[macnewma]

The sponsors will play a very big role in this. Sponsors need eyeballs on their players and that means they need TV ratings. TV ratings are driven primarily by strength of field.

 

Yes, the top players in golf aren't guaranteed prize money outside of WGCs. But the top players all have large endorsement deals. Most of those deals have exit clauses if the players don't play. But the players don't need to win to cash those checks.

 

So let's assume it is Hovland that is secretly interested in playing the SGL. Ping and his other sponsors are paying him a substantial amount as one of the most promising stars. So Hovland bolts and plays 8 events plus any majors he qualifies for (he hasn't won a major so that becomes precarious). Those 8 events get little to no TV coverage and unless half the top 10 bolts, the fields will look like the Barracuda + 1.

Sponsors won't shell out long for this invisible product (not to mention the bad press). The players will be trading one guaranteed money source for another. They might come out ahead in the short term, but we know Ping/Titleist/Nike etc will keep sponsoring players. What if SGL lasts 2-3 years?

The other catch for the league is the OWGR math. If players successfully get banned and about 3-5 of the top 10 and half the top 20 don't jump ship, playing in these events will diminish these players ongoing OWGR.

Take Joaquin Niemann. He is 23 and has no top 20's in majors. He has won twice which gives him a few years of PGA Tour exemptions, but he relies on his OWGR to get into majors. He is currently ranked 18th.

If Niemann left and played SGL for 2 years without being allowed entry to PGA or DP tour events, he would have virtually zero chance at entry into the Masters and other majors.

 

His sponsors would have to view that as a major risk to his visibility and value as an endorser. Further, he would have to bet on the SGL enduring for the long haul or the windfall of 2-3 years would be a long term loss.

 

The two biggest catches for the SGL are the inability to offer players a top 50 OWGR (needed for Masters and Open...PGA and US open have similar reqs) and the lack of eyeballs week to week. It is a chicken and egg thing. There would need to be a significant critical mass of players for it to have legs. I'd estimate that to be 7 of the top 10 and 15 of the top 20.

 

My guess is that for year one, you will see a field of Asian Tour guys that aren't PGA or DP Tour members. It would be difficult to legally exclude a non-member from future PGA Tour membership. It is significantly different than doing the same to a current member.

[macnewma]

16 minutes ago, BenSeattle said:

 

Hmmmm...I'm not sure I quite buy this.  My recollection is that Tim Finchem, seeing the MASSIVE popularity of the Ryder Cup (which had NO association with the PGA except for players) wanted to create an event that his Tour would own.  Voila.... The President's Cup.  

 

By the way, wouldn't it be nice to start a sports entity with the following: we don't need to be profitable, we don't need a TV deal, we don't need sponsors, we don't need spectators, we don't need media coverage, we don't need to be popular and we don't need to fill a need.  Because we have unlimited deep pockets from people who don't actually care about golf.  What they DO care about is getting the masses to "don't look there, look over here."  Some "Business Model" from the self-proclaimed tycoon, Greg Norman.

 

 

 

My recollection is that there was a push from Norman and Price for an international event, but they were hardly the driving force to make it happen.

 

Yes, people overestimate the power of having money and virtually nothing else on your side. Business is not simple brute force. If that were the case, the USFL would have beaten the NFL.

[CaseyC]

In addition to OWGR challenges, players who play the 8 events may have trouble keeping their PGA tour cards.  It appears most PGA players play 20 -30 PGA events per year.   Playing the minimum number of events may not be enough for players to keep their cards.

[golfandfishing]

1 hour ago, mizuno player said:

Sadly I have to raise my hand... 😲... I thought it was dead in the water.

Same. It seems like they have changed the format from a “tour” to a small amount of events. Players won’t be “joining a rival tour” per se, they can play once. LIV made some concessions here without coming right out and saying they did. I can see the tour doing the same thing - allowing players a release to play a few times. This requires them to play pga tour events they haven’t played recently. So a DJ can go play a Saudi money grab in Oregon without being a “member” of a rival tour and also plays something like a Sony Open or somewhere he doesn’t normally go. I can see this working out if Norman tones down his hostility towards the PGA and European Tours. 

[ChipStrokes]

2 hours ago, manku said:

Why the NBA?

 

MLB and NHL are leagues that cancelled games over money.  

nba has the most players just showing up for a paycheck IMO

[CaseyC]

How can there  be a "team" component if a player can choose to play only once?

[CasualLie]

5 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

Same. It seems like they have changed the format from a “tour” to a small amount of events. Players won’t be “joining a rival tour” per se, they can play once. LIV made some concessions here without coming right out and saying they did. I can see the tour doing the same thing - allowing players a release to play a few times. This requires them to play pga tour events they haven’t played recently. So a DJ can go play a Saudi money grab in Oregon without being a “member” of a rival tour and also plays something like a Sony Open or somewhere he doesn’t normally go. I can see this working out if Norman tones down his hostility towards the PGA and European Tours. 

 

Exactly.  Chest thumping aside, the PGA Tour will have to deal with the fact top players will bring the pressure when there are other non-tour events with FAT purses.  The Tour will have to figure out how to balance the pressure with the fallout on the lesser events.  If I am a top player, then I am going to want 15 Tour events, 4 majors and 8 - 10 others that are either fat money and/or patriotic events.  That's 27 - 30 weeks maximizing my earnings, and plenty of off season time.

 

@bscinstnct idea of throwing another $125M at the top 20 is a good idea, but I think it is just a start and probably not sustainable as long as there is this other tour with a $250M+ annual purse.

 

Whatever the small print, one does not need a crystal ball to see where this is heading.  The top players are going to get paid a lot more, the lesser events without them will lose players/sponsors/attention.  The PGA Tour is going to transform; it already had the advantage of a pseudo monopoly with growing popularity allowing for that rising tide to lift all boats where even the lesser events historically got bigger purses, but that is going to end.  There will still be 30+ events every year of prestige and/or big purses, they just won't all be PGA Tour controlled. 

[One Putter]

5 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

there are a cumulative 104 pages of discussion about the SGL on this site and no one has put a tee in the ground yet 

Yet none of that discussion is about actual golf....most of this thread is just speculation and trolling. Once that subsides.....what is the draw? Are people gonna care about how many wins you have on the SGL? Or will PGA Tour wins still be the gold standard? If you want to be compared to Jack and Tiger and Arnie....you have to play where they played. It's truly odd the number of people(probably non golfers) who can't see that. 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by One Putter

[ChipStrokes]

3 minutes ago, One Putter said:

Yet none of that discussion is about actual golf....most of this thread is just speculation and trolling.

if that was the criteria for posting on here it would be a lot more quiet. 

[golfandfishing]

7 minutes ago, One Putter said:

Yet none of that discussion is about actual golf....most of this thread is just speculation and trolling. Once that subsides.....what is the draw? Are people gonna care about how many wins you have on the SGL? Or will PGA Tour wins still be the gold standard?

Are players going to have to win PGA Tour (or European) events to be invited to the LIV events?  

[lazyjc4]

22 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

How can there  be a "team" component if a player can choose to play only once?

Teams change every event. 

[Chrysalis99]

I don’t see the moral high road argument prevailing here. The Saudis are invested in sports around the world. Notably International Football (soccer). You don’t see that sport waving the moral flag at the Saudis. They welcomed their investment. Soccer is the worlds more popular sport and its stars make obscene money compared to PGA players. 
 

The Saudis association with the SGL will be subtle and only news to us that follow the sport closely. The vast majority will be looking at Greg Norman as the face and the Asian Tour as the vehicle with little mention of the Saudis. 
 

It’s easy for us to be insulated from the rest of the world but after working in Hong Kong for the better part of 20 years it opened my eyes. If the SGL wants to host 8 events a year for big money the players should go for it. The PGA Tour can adapt and make it work. 8 SGL events, 4 majors and 15 tour events is 27 events. Not an outrageous schedule for a player especially if 8 events are 54 holes. 

[oikos1]

16 minutes ago, One Putter said:

Yet none of that discussion is about actual golf....most of this thread is just speculation and trolling. Once that subsides.....what is the draw? Are people gonna care about how many wins you have on the SGL? Or will PGA Tour wins still be the gold standard? If you want to be compared to Jack and Tiger and Arnie....you have to play where they played. It's truly odd the number of people(probably non golfers) who can't see that. 

 

How many golfers trying to make it on Tour are more concerned about being compared to Jack and Tiger and Arnie verses just trying to get their card, make a living playing golf and trying to achieve generational wealth for their families?  The accolades, when deserved, will come at the end of their career.

 

PGA Tour golf is an entertainment business.  It is financially driven.  I don't understand why so many want to hold the players to some higher moral/ethical standard of reasons why they should be playing golf on the PGA Tour more so than the rest of those doing the same business with the Tour.

[CaseyC]

15 minutes ago, lazyjc4 said:

Teams change every event. 

 

Oh, like Zurich....

[CasualLie]

23 minutes ago, One Putter said:

Yet none of that discussion is about actual golf....most of this thread is just speculation and trolling. Once that subsides.....what is the draw? Are people gonna care about how many wins you have on the SGL? Or will PGA Tour wins still be the gold standard? If you want to be compared to Jack and Tiger and Arnie....you have to play where they played. It's truly odd the number of people(probably non golfers) who can't see that. 

 

 

For those who associate golf with nostalgia / legends too closely, sorry, this is just not true anymore.  And maybe never was true outside of the majors.  It's easy to hold up Jack/Tiger on a pedestal, lots of majors and highlights.  But Arnie?  As much as he is loved, where is the play where they played factor?  Or win where they won?  All due respect to Arnie, a lot of respect, but many of his 62 wins came at the likes of Eastern Open, Azalea Open, St. Petersberg Open, Mobile Setoma, Pensacola, etc... not his fault, such was the tour those days...a very different tour.

 

 

[CaseyC]

wins on the SGL be like:

 

Annie: “Why not? You hit 20 more this year, you’re going to be the all-time minor-league champ. The record’s 246.” 
Crash: “Well, 247 home runs in the minor-leagues would be kind of a dubious honor.” 
Annie: “I think it would be great. The Sporting News should know about it.” 
Crash: “No, just no. Please?”

[lazyjc4]

29 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

 

Oh, like Zurich....

Norman wasn't super clear, but each event will have 12 captains, and they get to draft their team for the event.  Don't know how that carries over to the season ending event, if at all. 

[Chrysalis99]

What’s going to be very interesting this year is Fred Ridley’s press conference. There’s no doubt he’s going to be asked about it and it’s almost guaranteed they are discussing these events in ANGC board room right now. Hard to say where they end up since many of their members are invested in/with the Saudis. What Ridley says or doesn’t say will tell us which direction the wind is blowing. 

[tacklingdummy]

I don't think they need the absolute top players in the world, but I think their business model will prove to incentivize many higher ranking players. Of course, they need top world class golfers, but having entertaining players and an entertaining product that gets high ratings and gets people to want to watch.

 

I think they have to somehow highlight the player's personalities more, so they are not just robots and people watching can relate with them better, but not easy to do without getting awkward or corny in a competitive tournament. Perhaps, mic up the players more because hearing the players/caddies more than the golf analysts or commentators would be much more welcomed or maybe in exhibitions or PR events outside of the tournaments. Heck, there are amateur YouTube golfers that get way more ratings and are watched much more than many PGA tour players. That is why many YouTube golfers get such high ratings because of their relatability. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by tacklingdummy

[BlackDiamondPar5]

6 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

don’t confuse a slow start with a failure. there’s too much money behind this to just fizzle out. 

 

the only way the SGL fails is if the PGA Tour comes out of pocket bigtime, and i don’t see that happening

Might only be a league with primarily B and C level players. Hardly worth the investment, unless of course the Saudis continue to find these pawns useful for their sportswashing propaganda.

 

Otherwise I say this collapses faster than Norman at The Masters on Sunday. 

[Duct Tape]

23 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Might only be a league with primarily B and C level players. Hardly worth the investment, unless of course the Saudis continue to find these pawns useful for their sportswashing propaganda.

 

Otherwise I say this collapses faster than Norman at The Masters on Sunday. 

I don’t know BDP. I’m getting more and more pessimistic. 
 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Duct Tape

[lazyjc4]

47 minutes ago, Chrysalis99 said:

What’s going to be very interesting this year is Fred Ridley’s press conference. There’s no doubt he’s going to be asked about it and it’s almost guaranteed they are discussing these events in ANGC board room right now. Hard to say where they end up since many of their members are invested in/with the Saudis. What Ridley says or doesn’t say will tell us which direction the wind is blowing. 

Don't know that The Masters/ANCG has to acknowledge it at all.  LIV is no threat to them. 

[woodriff]

20 hours ago, jmck said:

Right?!?

 

Norman’s been trying to run the tour out of business since back when he was choking away majors as fast as he could get into contention. Do people really think there’s nothing in the current PGA Tour bylaws designed to nip that sort of thing in the bud?

That’s the thing I really don’t understand. What is the beef that Norman has with the PGA tour. I’m from the years of him playing and I can’t recall what the heck his animosity comes from. He seems very he’ll bent on something. Was he always this way? I don’t understand the deal. If the Saudis want a couple of major tournaments a year so be it. But Norman must have some major, major butt hurt with with the PGA in general, and it must have historically happened a long time ago. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by woodriff

[Chrysalis99]

12 minutes ago, lazyjc4 said:

Don't know that The Masters/ANCG has to acknowledge it at all.  LIV is no threat to them. 

They don’t “have” to acknowledge it but ANGC is one of the major stakeholders in golf. They like to say they’re not but everyone knows they are. Of course LIV is no threat to them but Augusta’s golf influence is strong. They’re going to get asked and their reaction will tell us how one of golfs most influential groups looks at it. 

[djmohab2]

11 minutes ago, woodriff said:

That’s the thing I really don’t understand. What is the beef that Norman has with the PGA tour. I’m from the years of him playing and I can’t recall what the heck his animosity comes from. He seems very he’ll bent on something. Was he always this way? I don’t understand the deal. If the Saudis want a couple of major tournaments a year so be it. But Norman must have some major, major butt hurt with with the PGA in general, and it must have historically happened a long time ago. 

He postulated about a World Tour which would have again supplemented, not competed against the PGA Tour. Finchem buried him and then created the WGC instead.

[Kenbone]

The big boys thrive on competition. Yes money is a big factor too but competing against the best is how most of the top guys measure their worth.

I just can't see any of the top guys playing in a short field event against random Euros and Asian tour players plus a smattering of past their prime PGA guys just because of the money.

 

[CDM]

Interestingly when you think about all the events put on by all the organizations throughout the world and that the TOP players only average about 20 events a year and of those 20 events 5 ARE MUST PLAYS .  *if you qualify of course and second baring injury

 

USGA/RA/AGNCC probably dont have dog in the fight on what happens as they are not associated and stand alone.  We all know AGNCC will do what it thinks best and has for years. I for one am glad they added the Womens event, It was time to give those ladies some more credit.

 

So now the PGA tour controls the 2 other big events and the most recent being interesting and not discussed how is it near dead match to what is being proposed.  

 

The PGA tour hypes the Players Championship as the largest prize purse in golf (or until weeks ago...)  and that is directly from them.  

 

So two groups copy / infringe / do the exact same thing to get the same talent on the field and it is an issue suddenly?? 

 

All the comments here against it sure seem to be from "Not in my backyard" people but with what merit?  These two groups can match / exceed exactly what the PGA Tour is doing with the PC and this is considered wrong.  Is this not the pot calling the kettle black? 

 

The question I have is why hate it until you try it.....?  I mean I hated broccoli forever but have given in  😃

 

If by chane both work to some extent what does it hurt to us the viewer or a sponsor?   

 

We as viewers get to see the best compete with each other in more events (hopefully on better courses though...LOL)  and the sponsors get the best players showing up so how is it not a good for everyone?

 

[golfandfishing]

54 minutes ago, woodriff said:

That’s the thing I really don’t understand. What is the beef that Norman has with the PGA tour. I’m from the years of him playing and I can’t recall what the heck his animosity comes from. He seems very he’ll bent on something. Was he always this way? I don’t understand the deal. If the Saudis want a couple of major tournaments a year so be it. But Norman must have some major, major butt hurt with with the PGA in general, and it must have historically happened a long time ago. 

In the early 90s Norman had an idea for a world tour, the PGA Tour shut him down harshly. Then they came out with the WGC’s, which was basically the same as what he had proposed. The man holds grudges, which I kind of admire.