It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[Hawkeye77]

28 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Haha I’m sure some people might see it that way but in reality Lee’s divot situation in a sense removed all theatrically possibilities except Bryson 3 putting. From a good lie he could have been much more aggressive..that’s what that finishing hole is all about and neither player was forced to take any risks on their second shot. 

 

They said the average proximity all day was 51 feet, he was 33 and hit a really good shot.  Clean contact and from a better lie may have just as easily hit a worse shot or no closer than he ended up from a different lie (see his approach on 16).  The theater of the situation doesn't really have anything to do with the rules, but point being it didn't appear to punish him all that much.  Lesson in there, he noted the lie and got about his business and executed a great shot --- rather than worry about more excuses for "mulligans" (not saying you are) a lot of regular folks would do well to follow his example.  There are definitely exceptions, but don't see too many folks playing by USGA rules 100% of the time concerned about the divot rules.  A few thousand shots on Tour this season and we've seen Rory and Lee face the issue out of all those, so far as we know.  Just not a problem.

 

Historical roots of golf are significant, play it as it lies is among the most fundamental.  Accept and enjoy the challenges rather than worry about the one stroke it might cost someone once every 2 years or so (who are rolling it out anyway).

Edited March 8, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[airjammer]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

They said the average proximity all day was 51 feet, he was 33 and hit a really good shot.  Clean contact and from a better lie may have just as easily hit a worse shot or no closer than he ended up from a different lie (see his approach on 16).  The theater of the situation doesn't really have anything to do with the rules, but point being it didn't appear to punish him all that much.  Lesson in there, he noted the lie and got about his business and executed a great shot --- rather than worry about more excuses for "mulligans" (not saying you are) a lot of regular folks would do well to follow his example.  There are definitely exceptions, but don't see too many folks playing by USGA rules 100% of the time concerned about the divot rules.  A few thousand shots on Tour this season and we've seen Rory and Lee face the issue out of all those, so far as we know.  Just not a problem.

 

Historical roots of golf are significant, play it as it lies is among the most fundamental.  Accept and enjoy the challenges rather than worry about the one stroke it might cost someone once every 2 years or so (who are rolling it out anyway).

It’s not a mulligan! It’s a expectation of a similar lie to everyone else from an area that you should be awarded for hitting. Where are all of you all when people talk about range finders, caddies, green books etc... none of those were originally in the rules. 
 

The original rule has been altered many times already over the years..in my opinion it’s past due to be altered again before we all just play simulator golf anyway once land is too valuable to waste as a golf course. 

[North Texas]

4 hours ago, tungstenplug said:

 

Are these "divots"? Would you get relief from any or all of these?

 

This right here. Not all divots are created equal. 

 

And not all players will have the same "definition" of what a divot is or is not. Allow relief from divots and it is an absolute certainty that the rule would be taken advantage of by the players. 

 

I have serious doubts that you could write a rule that even would make sense. The obvious result would be confusion and slower play. 

[Ferguson]

38% of the people in this thread are complaining about sand-filled divots because they don't like Bryson.  

22% were pulling for Westwood to get a better look at his girlfriend.  

28% were disappointed with Jordan's performance 

10% still can't believe Tiger won 8 times at Bay Hill 

2% wanted Conners 

 

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

 

I think you reducing an argument down to somebody "whining" because they don't "practice enough" or have an "unwillingness to play by the rules" is a gross and arrogant overstatement. 

 

I'm a +3 handicap and have been playing golf going on 26 years now. I've played at very high levels throughout my lifetime and proud of some of the things I've achieved, and my best ever handicap has been just over a +5 back in my college days. 

 

But to your point, let's all stop "whining" and let's do away with all these stupid rules over the years that have made golf "easier".

 

• Golfers used to not have to mark balls on the green and a player would by stymied, forced to chip over the ball. Well, play it as it lies, right? Let's bring that back! 
• Let's do away with the rules of allowing to tap down marks unnecessarily on the greens, that's ridiculous! 
• I say lets stop giving people relief just because one foot stands on a path or a sprinkler head. That's part of the golf course, deal with it!
• Also, what's this crap about leaving the pin in?! We shouldn't allow players a backboard on downhill putts, this isn't basketball!
• Why the heck do we now allow players to ground clubs in hazards or take practice swings?! It's a hazard for goodness sake!
• And don't even get me started on if you accidentally hit a ball during a practice stroke. You hit the ball! Count the stroke! You shouldn't be allowed to replace it for free!!!

 

Point is, things change over time and a game can evolve. It doesn't always have to be viewed as "making the game easier", but maybe some of these changes actually made sense. Maybe some of these new rules should've been there since the beginning, and the old way was actually the dumb way.

 

But you're right, all us bad golfers should just stop whining and practice more!

I see your point and to some extent agree.  I am a 70yr old self-taught golfer that took up the game at 40, and still playing to a 4 from big kids tees, so I am doing OK.  All my adult life I have been someone that rises to extreme activity demand and participates by the rules, if they exist.  People have lost perspective.  When lives are on the line, there is NO lets make it easier, but that's another topic too. 

 

Sure some changes make sense, but most do not.  At some juncture common sense needs to be applied.  Dropping the ball from knee height is absolutely silly.  When we dropped from the shoulder, tour guys and others flip the ball to insure it hits and bounces, so they'd eventually place the ball.  Just place the damn ball.  Knee dropping is a joke. 

 

I guess it comes down to I am just tired of listening to people chase rule changes.   If they are honest, it's just the game is too hard, and they want it easier because they don't want to practice.  Changing the rule is becoming easier than living with the fact someone might have to live with knowing they cheat cause its hard.  Same reason we have super game improvement CB's, but that's another subject. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Ferguson said:

38% of the people in this thread are complaining about sand-filled divots because they don't like Bryson.  

22% were pulling for Westwood to get a better look at his girlfriend.  

28% were disappointed with Jordan's performance 

10% still can't believe Tiger won 8 times at Bay Hill 

2% wanted Conners 

 

Haha and probably only one checked to see if that added up to 100%!  

[Hawkeye77]

15 minutes ago, airjammer said:

It’s not a mulligan! It’s a expectation of a similar lie to everyone else from an area that you should be awarded for hitting. Where are all of you all when people talk about range finders, caddies, green books etc... none of those were originally in the rules. 
 

The original rule has been altered many times already over the years..in my opinion it’s past due to be altered again before we all just play simulator golf anyway once land is too valuable to waste as a golf course. 

Caddies are expressly mentioned in the R&A's first official rules of golf.  

 

The rules evolve but the essence and philosophy of the original rules need not get lost in the shuffle and to a large extent they haven't - play it as it lies!

 

Nothing to do with range finders or green books, but I can't speak for all those other people.  I can say I've been a supporter of no relief from divots since I was 10, so I've been right there and consistent all my "career", but until I was on this golf forum 40 years later didn't know it was a big deal to anyone.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Old Tom Morris]

Crybabies want the rule changed.  

 

How about learning to hit the shot?  

[chigolfer1]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Its just you and a few others on social media.  Most good golfers including me accept the rules as they are. 

 

I wish people would stop whining.  Golf is difficult, and it requires practice, so you can hit ALL the shots needed to play golf.  If you don't want to practice, fine, then live with the consequences.   Sure it's a pain when we hit a fantastic shot down the middle and our ball ends up in an old divot.  But it's not all that different from hitting a stinky slice or smothered hook into the rough and allegedly playing the ball from where it lies.

 

Yep, some people have heard me say, dammit when my ball ends up in a spot that I don't like.  Still I remind myself that is why I practiced so much, then I hit the ball, forget it, and get on with my game.  What you won't find me doing in life is whining about something being unfair.  Divots in the rough or fairway are not ground under-repair.  They are as natural as the fairway is after it's been mowed to a make a nice place for us to hit the ball to and from.

 

Having said that, if someone doesn't like landing in a divot, bump the damn ball; most people, including me, don't care.  I'd rather people do that than the USGA & R&A water down the rules more to accommodate the unwillingness of people to practice and play by the rules.

 

I'm sure you've noticed they are changing rules all the time.

[hammersia]

Funny how it’s easy enough to identify a divot when 70 of the best players in the world have taken identical 4 inch by 3 inch bacon slices on a course manicured to perfection. 
 

Bit more tricky trying to identify what a divot is on the local muni after 180 hackers a day for months have torn the place up.

[hammersia]

5 hours ago, tungstenplug said:

 

Are these "divots"? Would you get relief from any or all of these?

 

Yes, no, yes in match play only, maybe, yes, yes in better ball only 👍

[golfandfishing]

1 minute ago, hammersia said:

 

Yes, no, yes in match play only, maybe, yes, yes in better ball only 👍

Technically none of those are divots, they are all divot holes. A divot is the piece of turf that was removed, not the scrape left behind. 

[lefty1978]

I think the rule is fine as is. In sports and in life you get good breaks and bad breaks. Sometimes you do everything correctly and the results are not favorable. Sometimes you mess up and it turns out favorable.

[TiScape]

9 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Indeed.  Divots are a part of the game - tough break, like landing behind a tree. 

 

Agree with your point. Where would it end? Not good. But will say it’s not really like landing behind a tree. You end up behind a tree, you hit a bad shot. A ball can be in a divot after a great shot. Like Westwood’s on 18 yesterday. 

[hammersia]

14 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

Technically none of those are divots, they are all divot holes. A divot is the piece of turf that was removed, not the scrape left behind. 

 

Depends on which dictionary you use, I prefer the Cambridge English dictionary:

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/divot
 

a small hole in an area of grass, especially one made by a golf club (= stick for hitting) or ball; a piece of grass that has been cut out, leavingsuch a hole

 

(And no, we Brits don’t consider American dictionaries as real dictionaries)

[golfandfishing]

4 minutes ago, hammersia said:

 

Depends on which dictionary you use, I prefer the Cambridge English dictionary:

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/divot
 

a small hole in an area of grass, especially one made by a golf club (= stick for hitting) or ball; a piece of grass that has been cut out, leavingsuch a hole

 

(And no, we Brits don’t consider American dictionaries as real dictionaries)

Wonderful! 🙂  

[Ferguson]

4 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Agree with your point. Where would it end? Not good. But will say it’s not really like landing behind a tree. You end up behind a tree, you hit a bad shot. A ball can be in a divot after a great shot. Like Westwood’s on 18 yesterday. 

 

Not exactly - sometimes a person hits a good shot and has a bad result.  We've all had that happen.   Maybe it bounced off hard turf and rolled next to a tree, or maybe the wind came up and knocked it down a little, or maybe it ricocheted off a sprinkler head? 

 

Philosophically, Westwood did not did a great shot, in that he landed in a divot. 

 

 

I thought Lee handled the shot well.  Do you actually think he would have gone at that stick with 47 year old nerves?   

No.  Lee is not that player anymore, sand-filled divot notwithstanding.  He took solo 2nd and banked $1M US to the delight of that new bride.  

[DavePelz4]

3 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

Not exactly - sometimes a person hits a good shot and has a bad result.  We've all had that happen.   Maybe it bounced off hard turf and rolled next to a tree, or maybe the wind came up and knocked it down a little, or maybe it ricocheted off a sprinkler head? 

 

Philosophically, Westwood did not did a great shot, in that he landed in a divot. 

 

 

I thought Lee handled the shot well.  Do you actually think he would have gone at that stick with 47 year old nerves?   

No.  Lee is not that player anymore, sand-filled divot notwithstanding.  He took solo 2nd and banked $1M US to the delight of that new bride.  

 

If he was on GolfWRX he would have gone at it, stuck it, and made the birdie putt.

[miamistomp]

 Westwood hit a fine shot from the divot and not sure that he would have done any better from a clean lie

 

 He looked to me like he was just trying to hold on and hoping  Bryson would make an error rather than go after him 

 It never looked like he was going to run away from Bryson

 

 I am sure he is happy with his million dollar check

 

[Ferguson]

3 minutes ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

If he was on GolfWRX he would have gone at it, stuck it, and made the birdie putt.

 

Indeed.   

 

WRXers have the will to win. 

Westwood has a scruffy beard. 

[TiScape]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

Not exactly - sometimes a person hits a good shot and has a bad result.  We've all had that happen.   Maybe it bounced off hard turf and rolled next to a tree, or maybe the wind came up and knocked it down a little, or maybe it ricocheted off a sprinkler head? 

 

Philosophically, Westwood did not did a great shot, in that he landed in a divot. 

 

 

I thought Lee handled the shot well.  Do you actually think he would have gone at that stick with 47 year old nerves?   

No.  Lee is not that player anymore, sand-filled divot notwithstanding.  He took solo 2nd and banked $1M US to the delight of that new bride.  

True. Westwood hit a perfect shot and got a bad break for sure. He handled it amazingly well 👏🏼 I wasn’t taking into account great shot, bad break to end up behind a tree. Always a difficult pill to swallow when you hit the exact shot you wanted and end up with a bad result. That’s why golf is such a great game. Like in life, there will be times you do the right thing and still get a less than desirable result. You have to deal with the adversity and play it as it lies. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by TiScape

[Shakespeare]

4 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Not exactly - sometimes a person hits a good shot and has a bad result.  We've all had that happen.   Maybe it bounced off hard turf and rolled next to a tree, or maybe the wind came up and knocked it down a little, or maybe it ricocheted off a sprinkler head? 

 

Philosophically, Westwood did not did a great shot, in that he landed in a divot. 

 

 

I thought Lee handled the shot well.  Do you actually think he would have gone at that stick with 47 year old nerves?   

No.  Lee is not that player anymore, sand-filled divot notwithstanding.  He took solo 2nd and banked $1M US to the delight of that new bride.  

I cannot believe that Lee would have sat in a interview and say he is 47 and is not the player he once was , so he wouldn't have gone for it. You lost me after you thought Lee handled it well....but picked me up again with his new bride being delighted with 1 million dollars

[dlygrisse]

Not time.  

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, airjammer said:

It’s not a mulligan! It’s a expectation of a similar lie to everyone else from an area that you should be awarded for hitting. Where are all of you all when people talk about range finders, caddies, green books etc... none of those were originally in the rules. 
 

The original rule has been altered many times already over the years..in my opinion it’s past due to be altered again before we all just play simulator golf anyway once land is too valuable to waste as a golf course. 

So why not just go to TopGolf now? Or carry your own piece of astroturf?  Perfect lie every time.

And leave the real golf to those that wish to play it. All of these suggestions like “one or two free drops per round” and “relief from divots”.  Pretty soon the same folks will want a mulligan per side.

[b.mattay]

I'm not for divot relief in a tournament but I believe courses should make it a local rule for everyday play that relief should be the case.

 

Why? When hitting out of an unfilled divot where the equator of the ball is below the ground, I'm going a take a divot that is a literal trench, 2 inches deep and 1 foot long. Seems unnecessary for everyday play. 

 

I also feel that all divots should be sanded immediately to avoid this issue. Hitting out of a sandy divot is almost no different than a fairway lie provided you hit ball first. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by b.mattay

[milesgiles]

18 hours ago, chillybilly said:

 

Literally abour?  Or is it literally about?  And how is something literal (specific/exact) and about (vague/estimated) simultaneously?

 

I mean, if you're going to be pedantic forum cop I suppose we can play along.

 

Please provide your strict criteria for participating in a public, open forum so that we may avoid future transgressions and thoughtcrime.

 

For the record, I did read the thread.  But I have apparently failed to meet the demands of a total stranger.  I shall now don the hairshirt for the remainder of the week.

 

my only criteria is to read the thread such that you dont make a post that is redundant.

 

Almost every thread on wrx goes the same way, with the same points being made every other page even though they have been disproved several times already.

 

 

[Aviador Naval]

After a couple of drams of Scottish intellect enhancer, I find myself wondering if the folks serenading us with the cacophony of “good shots DESERVE good results” intend to approach the USGA and R&A with a proposal that all shots that ricochet off hard goods not in the fairway (trees, cart paths, fence posts, etc) and subsequently come to rest in the fairway or a choice spot in the rough with no obstacles encumbering the path to the green must be returned to the point of ball/obstacle collision - and if the infractee is a Category I whiner - their ball must dropped into a stymied unplayable lie.  After all, shots coated in fecal matter DESERVE to be punished...

Edited March 9, 2021 by Aviador Naval

[golfandfishing]

5 hours ago, b.mattay said:

I'm not for divot relief in a tournament but I believe courses should make it a local rule for everyday play that relief should be the case.

 

Why? When hitting out of an unfilled divot where the equator of the ball is below the ground, I'm going a take a divot that is a literal trench, 2 inches deep and 1 foot long. Seems unnecessary for everyday play. 

 

I also feel that all divots should be sanded immediately to avoid this issue. Hitting out of a sandy divot is almost no different than a fairway lie provided you hit ball first. 

I would guess that around 99% of everyday play disregards at least some rules already, no need for any courses to implement a local rule for this. If you want to move your ball from a divot during a round go right ahead. What does the course have to do with that anyway?

[airjammer]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So why not just go to TopGolf now? Or carry your own piece of astroturf?  Perfect lie every time.

And leave the real golf to those that wish to play it. All of these suggestions like “one or two free drops per round” and “relief from divots”.  Pretty soon the same folks will want a mulligan per side.

While this might not include you..I find it quite ironic that a high percentage of the posters that claim original rule etc are the same ones who rail against the thought of some nerfing the ball and taking away their mailboxes on sticks in the roll back thread...makes zero sense 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Ferguson]

9 hours ago, Shakespeare said:

I cannot believe that Lee would have sat in a interview and say he is 47 and is not the player he once was , so he wouldn't have gone for it. You lost me after you thought Lee handled it well....but picked me up again with his new bride being delighted with 1 million dollars

 

Westwood didn't stammer around and complain, take his hat off in disgust or point to the sky.  This is not his first divot shot and he's had marital problems.   Lee's been around.   He did the best job he could and didn't attempt anything stupid to make it worse. 

 

Look for him to contend at the British Open.