He may not know the Rules: what would you do?

[jobin]

Bob showed some Rules ignorance the other day.  E.g. permitted the umbrella while putting, pushed the sand away from the ball while in the bunker, claimed the ball 'embedded' but stuck in deep grass, not the earth.

 

I've got a match game with Bob next week so i am considering whether to inform/advise Bob to review the Rules, esp while in the bunker.  Coz if he moves the sand around while playing our match, i'll need to call the penalty.  Gotta win the hole, ya' know. 

 

On the other hand, live and let live is a good motto; so i'd keep my opinions to myself and  maybe Bob will never find the sand next week. 

 

Would you advise Bob to review the Rules?

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, jobin said:

Bob showed some Rules ignorance the other day.  E.g. permitted the umbrella while putting, pushed the sand away from the ball while in the bunker, claimed the ball 'embedded' but stuck in deep grass, not the earth.

 

I've got a match game with Bob next week so i am considering whether to inform/advise Bob to review the Rules, esp while in the bunker.  Coz if he moves the sand around while playing our match, i'll need to call the penalty.  Gotta win the hole, ya' know. 

 

On the other hand, live and let live is a good motto; so i'd keep my opinions to myself and  maybe Bob will never find the sand next week. 

 

Would you advise Bob to review the Rules?

Yes, and advise him that the match will be played according to the Rules.

[antip]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Yes, and advise him that the match will be played according to the Rules.

It could be useful to practice with the rules app yourself, or bring a flagged rules book, so you can quickly pull up those rules screw ups you know Bob has form on - pointing to the source may help Bob over the line he has clearly been ignoring for a long time.

You can also choose to first raise a breach on the subsequent hole, if you don't wish to impose the penalty on the first occasion. It would mean Bob is on notice he cannot commit the same error again. That said, there's a famous Tom Watson quote to the effect that the best way to learn a rule is to get penalized for breaching it.

[bobfoster]

Er, how long has this guy been playing golf? I mean anyone that has even watched golf pretty much knows you can't even touch the sand on a practice swing, let alone move it around on purpose.

 

And if he is playing someone in a match game (something I don't think any beginner would do) I suspect he knows the rules, just doesn't feel like following them. 

 

Just tell him you'd like an agreement that you play by the rules, and carry a pocket version of them around. 

[Nels55]

On 8/21/2021 at 9:11 PM, antip said:

It could be useful to practice with the rules app yourself, or bring a flagged rules book, so you can quickly pull up those rules screw ups you know Bob has form on - pointing to the source may help Bob over the line he has clearly been ignoring for a long time.

You can also choose to first raise a breach on the subsequent hole, if you don't wish to impose the penalty on the first occasion. It would mean Bob is on notice he cannot commit the same error again. That said, there's a famous Tom Watson quote to the effect that the best way to learn a rule is to get penalized for breaching it.

I thought that if I ignored a rules breach and then called it later that would be grounds for my disqualification?  Maybe not in match play?  Also I have found out the hard way that calling rules breaches later really pisses other golfers off...  Call it right away or don't call it at all...

[Augster]

46 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I thought that if I ignored a rules breach and then called it later that would be grounds for my disqualification?  Maybe not in match play?  Also I have found out the hard way that calling rules breaches later really pisses other golfers off...  Call it right away or don't call it at all...

In match play, you can ignore a rules breach by your opponent. But if you are going to call the rules breach, it is best to do it right away. 

[antip]

33 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I thought that if I ignored a rules breach and then called it later that would be grounds for my disqualification?  Maybe not in match play?  Also I have found out the hard way that calling rules breaches later really pisses other golfers off...  Call it right away or don't call it at all...

No requirement to call anything in match play - see Rule 3.2d(4).

Stroke play is different, player should call anything they see, Rule 20.1c(2) covers this but your understanding of the timing requirement is incorrect, the rule saying "this should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns his or her scorecard unless it is not possible to do so". That is, calling it later but within that time constraint above is not a breach. That said, sooner is better than later to avoid nasty surprises post round. DQ for failing to do so is at the discretion of the Committee if they conclude failure to report was serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game.

Calling someone out is a challenge too far for very many golfers, which is highly unfortunate IMO. That said, there can be better ways to do it than "that's a breach...". A good way to go is to point directly to the book/app if that is handy or to note this is an issue to get confirmation on as soon as possible, including immediately after finishing and before submitting the card.

I also observe that there is huge misunderstanding out there that somehow calling out is a marker responsibility. Not so, it is the responsibility of everyone in the stroke play field as well as any ROs out there. I've heard a lot of "but I'm not the marker" BS.

[Hawkeye77]

If Bob is real I’d just worry about the alleged match and take things as they come - no reason to be a jerk and tell him he needs to read the rules if you aren’t going to bother to point out violations as they occur. 

[denkea]

What I've done in the past when peeps I play with casually break the rules I'll say something like "Just some FYI what you did was against the rules and if you play in a tournament you may have someone call you on it".  

Not that I would call him on it when we played but just trying to give informational advise. 

[sui generis]

Rick and I were to play a match. Before teeing off, I said to him that we should play by the Rules and the Local Rules posted on the golf shop bulletin board. He agreed.

 

I was walking and he was in a cart. On the first hole, as I caught up to him where his tee shot came to rest, I saw him pick up the ball and measure a club-length and place it. (This was a dry day in mid-summer and the Local Rules had no provision for preferred lies.)

 

"Rick, we're not playing preferred lies," I said.

 

"Really, well that's how our always group plays," he replied.

 

"Not today, Rick, that's not what we just agreed to," was my answer.

I did not express my intention to make a claim (pre-2019 Rules). To this day, it's unclear to me if I deliberately agreed to ignore any Rule or penalty. However, going forward, I know that I will either address the breach immediately, or wait until after we've played our tee shots on the next hole to discuss it.

 

 

[MountainKing]

45 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Rick and I were to play a match. Before teeing off, I said to him that we should play by the Rules and the Local Rules posted on the golf shop bulletin board. He agreed.

 

 

 

 

People actually say this to their opponent in real life?

[ChipStrokes]

15 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

People actually say this to their opponent in real life?

reminds me of the just say no to drugs scripts they used to push in elementary school 

 

“hey kid you want some drugs?”

 

”gee golly no sir. i get high on life and choose to play by the rules!”

[MountainKing]

1 minute ago, ChipStrokes said:

reminds me of the just say no to drugs scripts they used to push in elementary school 

 

“hey kid you want some drugs?”

 

”gee golly no sir. i get high on life and choose to play by the rules!”

 

Funny, that's exactly where I went with it in my mind.  

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Funny, that's exactly where I went with it in my mind.  

So you would prefer to let your opponent bump the ball in the fairway and remove sand behind the ball in the bunker and so on? 
 

Or are you the guy doing these things?

 

This is the rules forum….if you don’t play by the rules of golf exactly what game are you playing?

[Abh159]

33 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

People actually say this to their opponent in real life?

 

I was thinking the same thing. I'd find it really odd if I was on the tee waiting to tee off in a match and someone said that to me. 

 

Although it might be necessary in the OP's case based on his story. Makes me wonder what kind of event he's playing in. I don't think I've every played in any type of tournament where I felt like I needed to establish that we were going to "play by the rules" beforehand...

[MountainKing]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So you would prefer to let your opponent bump the ball in the fairway and remove sand behind the ball in the bunker and so on? 
 

Or are you the guy doing these things?

 

This is the rules forum….if you don’t play by the rules of golf exactly what game are you playing?

 

Shouldn't this just be assumed?    Everybody goes on about this being some sort of "gentlemen's game", but then we're talking to our opponent like he's a child?   If you break a rule, I'll call you on it, if I break one, I expect to be called if I don't call it on myself.  Beyond that, I don't see why having to make a silly announcement on the first tee is needed, unless of course you're projecting. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

 

Shouldn't this just be assumed?    Everybody goes on about this being some sort of "gentlemen's game", but then we're talking to our opponent like he's a child?   If you break a rule, I'll call you on it, if I break one, I expect to be called if I don't call it on myself.  Beyond that, I don't see why having to make a silly announcement on the first tee is needed, unless of course you're projecting. 

If you read the post you replied to originally it was known the player’s default game is to play the ball up and bump it around.  Knowing that do you play the gotcha game and penalize him or let him know in advance the rules of golf will be adhered to?

[MountainKing]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If you read the post you replied to originally it was known the player’s default game is to play the ball up and bump it around.  Knowing that do you play the gotcha game and penalize him or let him know in advance the rules of golf will be adhered to?

 

Just keep an eye on him, why do more than that? It's on him to know he needs to play by the rules, not you.  

[Shilgy]

18 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Just keep an eye on him, why do more than that? It's on him to know he needs to play by the rules, not you.  

Sure it is.  And he may be thinking the relaxed rules he is used to playing are fine.  Why not let him know they are not?  Seems to be the gentlemanly think to do rather than catching and penalizing him.

[MtlJeff]

Personally, i find it pretty tacky to let someone break a rule when you could have informed them, and then call them out on it. I get that some people are "competitors" and the goal is to win, but this is just tacky to me.

 

In my last match play tournament, i went to "finish" a putt that was maybe 2 feet from the hole, forgetting that you cannot do this in match play. My competitor pretty much yelled at me to stop and not do it LOL, reminding me that i couldn't do this. I thought that was very sportsmanlike considering at the time i believe we were all square.

 

In another match later on, i did a similar thing for my opponent.

 

I want to win because i hit better shots--at the end of the day

[Pearlwhites]

9 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

If Bob is real I’d just worry about the alleged match and take things as they come - no reason to be a jerk and tell him he needs to read the rules if you aren’t going to bother to point out violations as they occur. 

 

Agreed.  See how the match unfolds and play it by ear.  Giving Bob a heads up could start some ill will before it is deserved.

[sui generis]

12 minutes ago, Pearlwhites said:

 

Agreed.  See how the match unfolds and play it by ear.  Giving Bob a heads up could start some ill will before it is deserved.

 

If Bob is a known bad actor or is known to be careless with the Rules, it's a service to him to be put on notice that the match will be played in accordance with the Rules of Golf not the Rules of Bob's beer league. 

[jimbo123]

18 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

Personally, i find it pretty tacky to let someone break a rule when you could have informed them, and then call them out on it. I get that some people are "competitors" and the goal is to win, but this is just tacky to me.

 

In my last match play tournament, i went to "finish" a putt that was maybe 2 feet from the hole, forgetting that you cannot do this in match play. My competitor pretty much yelled at me to stop and not do it LOL, reminding me that i couldn't do this. I thought that was very sportsmanlike considering at the time i believe we were all square.

 

In another match later on, i did a similar thing for my opponent.

 

I want to win because i hit better shots--at the end of the day

I don’t get it.  He can just let your putt stand instead of recalling it.  Wouldn’t that be more sportsmanlike than yelling at you? 

[MtlJeff]

4 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

I don’t get it.  He can just let your putt stand instead of recalling it.  Wouldn’t that be more sportsmanlike than yelling at you? 

 

Good question but no, because it was a 4-way match (4 individual matches) so the other guys could've called me on it.

 

I guess that raises the question of if the other guys should have been p*ssed at him

 

Either way, i thought it was classy. And he didn't really "yell" haha....He was just like "nooooo, don't do that"

[jimbo123]

10 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Good question but no, because it was a 4-way match (4 individual matches) so the other guys could've called me on it.

 

I guess that raises the question of if the other guys should have been p*ssed at him

 

Either way, i thought it was classy. And he didn't really "yell" haha....He was just like "nooooo, don't do that"

Yeah, classy, I like it 

[naval2006]

This all probably arises because of the strong recreational approach to golf a lot of people have.  In countries where tournament golf is the soul of the golf activity everybody understands you only play by the rules.  And if a rule is breached in matchplay at any club competition the opposite side just uses the rules book, the player or team gets penalized, they accept it and the match just goes on.  This approach seems so simple that it looks unreal.  It's based on the principle of everybody always playing within the rules of golf.    

[nitram]

What if Bob's real name is Patrick? Would the conversation be different now?

[TerpFangolfer]

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

This all probably arises because of the strong recreational approach to golf a lot of people have.  In countries where tournament golf is the soul of the golf activity everybody understands you only play by the rules.  And if a rule is breached in matchplay at any club competition the opposite side just uses the rules book, the player or team gets penalized, they accept it and the match just goes on.  This approach seems so simple that it looks unreal.  It's based on the principle of everybody always playing within the rules of golf.    

definitely agree -the vast majority of US players play "hit & giggle" golf. And some can be caught unaware when they first dip their toe into real golf.

 

I play in an informal local am "tour" - supposedly we are playing USGA rules, but I have seen many questionable actions - mostly around PA relief drops, GUR (making their own rulings about a "bad spot"), and infamously MLR E-5, where the guy announced and hit a prov, then when the prov wasn't very good wanted to invoke E-5 75 yds forward where his orig ball went OB...lol.

 

Just this weekend had a guy leave his ball behind the hole while another player chipped on like the 1st or 2nd hole. Ok, nothing was said - he did it another time or 2 (the balls weren't that close to hole or right on the thru line...so ok) it just worked out it was always for player 2 in our group. Never for me ( I would have told him to mark)...then finally he broke after about the 3rd time and actually said out-loud to the other guy, when he was chipping "leave it there like I did for you"...at that point I had to say something. They both looked at me like I was crazy (not the first time it has happened in the group - I'm sure I'm known to some of them as "the rules geek dude"...lol

[Krt22]

On 8/22/2021 at 9:33 PM, bobfoster said:

Er, how long has this guy been playing golf? I mean anyone that has even watched golf pretty much knows you can't even touch the sand on a practice swing, let alone move it around on purpose.

 

And if he is playing someone in a match game (something I don't think any beginner would do) I suspect he knows the rules, just doesn't feel like following them. 

 

Just tell him you'd like an agreement that you play by the rules, and carry a pocket version of them around. 

We had a guy at our club (bag golfer) completely whiff on one out of the sand. He then went on to say it was a practice swing. Heh! Imagine trying to cheat and causing yourself 2 strokes instead of 1

[antip]

9 hours ago, Krt22 said:

We had a guy at our club (bag golfer) completely whiff on one out of the sand. He then went on to say it was a practice swing. Heh! Imagine trying to cheat and causing yourself 2 strokes instead of 1

Betrayed by your own sand wedge, how humiliating.