distance debate

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, freddi22cl said:

https://golf.com/news/watch-dj-crush-jack-nicklauss-persimmon-driver/

 

maybe these guys r just too good? 😂, think the ball is the bigger issue, or the easiest place to go first .  Tiger maybe on to something 

 

in 1990, just over 30 yrs ago  T Purtzer led the tour with a driving average of 279 yds. That's a baby 3 -wood for these guys

tied 100th was G Waite- 262 yds

 

Riviera was a beast of a track back then 🤣

Geez, from everything I’ve read here you would have thought he’d whiff it!😂

[golfer07840]

Ffs we still debating this? 🤦‍♂️

[golfer07840]

10 hours ago, Nard_S said:

 

My course, a municipal had to move out & increase size of the bunkers on the longer holes to match where balls were now landing compared to 25 years ago. They dropped a million doing it.

 

Weird. I play on roughy 10 courses a year, for the last 25 years. Not a 1 has added yardage. If anything, most have taken away the very tips since no one uses them. 

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

Weird. I play on roughy 10 courses a year, for the last 25 years. Not a 1 has added yardage. If anything, most have taken away the very tips since no one uses them. 

 

I did say, leave the amateurs equipment and courses alone. Thats not the issue.

 

Neither is the scores of the pro's

 

The issue is the extreme  bombing ie carry off the tee. With the 460 its too easy for too many to crash it over all the trouble. 250cc clubhead, for pros and scratch amateurs, almost no one will risk swinging hard enough to carry everything, and if they do good for them

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, Haroputt said:

I personally could do without 460 cc head.  Like to see restriction size 

This is the only thing that will work.  It needs to go sub 240cc  and max of 43 inch length.   But they’re not going to do it. They’ll do something stupid. I just can feel it. 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

This is the only thing that will work.  It needs to go sub 240cc  and max of 43 inch length.   But they’re not going to do it. They’ll do something stupid. I just can feel it. 

 

of course. Its the worst administered game in the world.

 

Im not at all sure about the spinnier ball.. surely you can set up your swing or driver for less spin to counteract it, and if it did work you'd be penalising the longest hitters arbritrarily and disproportionately

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

This is the only thing that will work.  It needs to go sub 240cc  and max of 43 inch length.   But they’re not going to do it. They’ll do something stupid. I just can feel it. 

 

Thats what I’m sayin. 
 

Pro game. Should have some “pro” standards here. 
 

The NFL, NBA, and MLB still play the same game with the same equipment, and the same size fields/primary scoring challenges 

 

for like the past 100 years!

 

But golf?

 

Its like they enlarged the hoop, allowed aluminum bats, and gave the offense an extra receiver!

 

Until they roll back the toaster heads, I’m pledging to go on viewing strike!

 

 

 

 

*I will not honor this pledge 🤣

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

This is the only thing that will work.  It needs to go sub 240cc  and max of 43 inch length.   But they’re not going to do it. They’ll do something stupid. I just can feel it. 

 

the size limit on drivers is fine with me too. I do think it would help curtail the long drive like swings we see sometimes. And for Amateurs i'm not sure how much it hurts them. Low indexes probably not much. Higher indexes struggle with even a 460cc driver in many cases.

[Nard_S]

7 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

Weird. I play on roughy 10 courses a year, for the last 25 years. Not a 1 has added yardage. If anything, most have taken away the very tips since no one uses them. 

They did not add length, they moved the bunkers to where able hitters had to worry about them again. Course was built in 1960's. It was biggest part of renovation work, but it was not a million just for that. They did tree & tee box work too, so I have to correct that.

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

The ruling bodies need to govern. Then the manufacturers will produce. Then, we will all still play the game. Silly to think we won’t. 

 

My perception has been that the handful of USGA equipment engineers have been overwhelmed by the OEM's engineer's abilities to push the technology.  USGA is in a reactive position.  The OEM's are always going to be in front, pushing the envelope and pushing fast to market.

 

It has been brought up here, and I can't quote it so I'll do my best to paraphrase, but one of the USGA guys said something to the effect, "A pro golfer would never want to use a driver bigger than XXXcc."  Given the materials that clubs were built of at that time he may well have been correct.  But things obviously changed, big time.

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, KennyP said:

 

Too messy in my opinion;

 

Pros using a different ball will inevitably lead to pros using different equipment - different lofts, shafts etc. to get dialled into that ball.

 

Just set courses up so straight hitting is paramount on at least half the holes. Hitting it 350 yards down the middle isn't the problem. The problem is hitting it 350 yards off line and still being better off than someone who hits it 290 in the fairway.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't that happen every time that Titleist rolls out a new version of the ProV?  Or TM puts a new driver out there?  You don't think that the pros are not already playing equipment that are not available to the retail golfer? 

 

15 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

I wonder how small you would have to make the driver to actually make a difference?  

I’d have no problem swinging hard at a modern 5wood sized driver and see similar results.  It would have to be a really small head for those guys.

 

It would be smaller than I think anyone would ever sign up for.

 

14 hours ago, ShupeSC said:

250 cc wouldn’t change much for the pro game. That’s larger than an average 3wood which is around 200/180. Guys have no problem hitting a beefed up 3wood 300+. 

 

Yep.  Today's 3 wood is bigger than a persimmon driver.  I think it has less to do with size as it does with forgiveness.

 

11 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

The whole grow the rough and tighten fairway argument i dont get to discourage bomb and gouge. Doing that only makes bomb and gouge stronger and rewards distance more.

 

Agree.  When Bryson puts one in the gunch at 350 he has the strength to wedge it out of the cabbage.

 

Take another guy who's ball just trickles into the rough at 280.  He is 70 yards back trying to get it out with a 6 or 5 iron.

[jvincent]

I'm bored, so I might as well chime in.

 

There's very little that can be done on the club side of things. If pro golfers keep being able to swing faster because of training, genetic engineering, etc then club restrictions don't matter. Hell I think it was Rahm I was watching recently who hit a 4i from the fairway and his ball speed was 148 mph.

 

However, controlling the ball is beyond easy. The current testing parameters for the ball (initial launch velocity, spin, etc) are so far out of touch with what pros and elite amateurs can achieve it's comical.

 

They could limit the ball by changing probably 40-50 characters of text in the current standard. The nice part about this is that it would allow the ball manufacturers to get creative so that the reduction in distance seen by the high speed guys won't be as much of an impact on the low speed guys since drag is a function of velocity.

[Shilgy]

48 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Doesn't that happen every time that Titleist rolls out a new version of the ProV?  Or TM puts a new driver out there?  You don't think that the pros are not already playing equipment that are not available to the retail golfer? 

 

 

It would be smaller than I think anyone would ever sign up for.

 

 

Yep.  Today's 3 wood is bigger than a persimmon driver.  I think it has less to do with size as it does with forgiveness.

 

 

Agree.  When Bryson puts one in the gunch at 350 he has the strength to wedge it out of the cabbage.

 

Take another guy who's ball just trickles into the rough at 280.  He is 70 yards back trying to get it out with a 6 or 5 iron.

Typical modern three wood is 175cc and persimmon driver 190cc.  Mainly due to shallower face height.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

My perception has been that the handful of USGA equipment engineers have been overwhelmed by the OEM's engineer's abilities to push the technology.  USGA is in a reactive position.  The OEM's are always going to be in front, pushing the envelope and pushing fast to market.

 

It has been brought up here, and I can't quote it so I'll do my best to paraphrase, but one of the USGA guys said something to the effect, "A pro golfer would never want to use a driver bigger than XXXcc."  Given the materials that clubs were built of at that time he may well have been correct.  But things obviously changed, big time.

It was Frank Thomas who said that .  Worst statement in golf history. 

[gvogel]

19 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I can't wait to see the ball spec the USGA writes up.🍿⁰

It would sure be a lot easier to spec drivers (for elite golfers) at maximum 230 cc and face COR at .76 (approximately the same as persimmon). 

Then reduce the overall distance standard for the ball, and let the manufacturers have at it.

[gvogel]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

This is the only thing that will work.  It needs to go sub 240cc  and max of 43 inch length.   But they’re not going to do it. They’ll do something stupid. I just can feel it. 

If they adopted 230 cc or less for a driver, they wouldn't have to max the length of the driver.  The players would play shorter, maybe 43-1/2, a few 44.  Longer than that, it would be too difficult to play the smaller head size.

[khalespace]

If the drivers and golf balls are limited by COR is low spin the only reason distance keeps getting longer? Why aren't we seeing amateurs getting longer?

 

Maybe pro golfers today are just hitting longer. If they are hitting 9 iron 180 yards is it becausethey are stronger than yesterday's pro golfers? There has not been many changes in these blade irons.

[Nard_S]

Ball tech narrowed dispersion and added distance. When Tiger says "just add spin" he's pretty much on it but what is left out is the ball uses spin to attain better aerodynamics too. Wind does not matter as much with a Pro V as it does with a Tour 100 because the ball has a cleaner less turbulent, envelope to move itself through the air. The implication on shot making & dispersion is huge. I'm not one who wants to get rid of it, but on a Tour level it's taken away or diminished what makes them shine at their best and that is their mastery of spin control. That demonstration. Tiger is nearly the only guy who lives by it and he destroys guys half his age with it. The tour is now mainly refined John Daly's and near zero of Tiger's.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nard_S

[ThinkingPlus]

26 minutes ago, gvogel said:

It would sure be a lot easier to spec drivers (for elite golfers) at maximum 230 cc and face COR at .76 (approximately the same as persimmon). 

Then reduce the overall distance standard for the ball, and let the manufacturers have at it.

If they bifurcate, the OEMs will sue.  That's why the RBs are treading so carefully.  A legal war would deplete everyone's cash reserves and just benefit the lawyers no matter the outcome.  If they don't bifurcate, we all lose.  Golf gets harder, handicaps go up, fewer people play, etc.... .

[J_Tizzle]

At the end of the day, they need different pros/am rule set.  The am plays on courses (that unless they're the top of the private clubs) are kept in terrible shape compared to what the pros play, which in turn makes a huge difference on how the clubs perform.  Like several have said, the pros can carry a  driving iron 230-240 and have it roll to 290, when thats a solid drive for me.  I swing the club in that 108-110 range so I'm not short by any means, but the ability for them to get such massive distance once the ball lands on the ground its insane and THATS the issue when you start seeing the insane distances these guys avg.

 

I mean I'd be all for  the am rules softening up the BS that is mostly in there for the highest competitive levels.  Allow preferred lies in your given fairway and rake and place in bunkers (this is primarily due to just a normal person playing a normal round of golf on a not an ultra exclusive course), no length restrictions on clubs, allow anchoring again, and countless other things.  These items would make golf better for 99% of golfers, and make the game more appealing and fun to the masses.

 

If you want to see if the rules of golf are confusing and insane, just look at the rules section of the  forums to see questions people have.  I had a question if I could put electric tape on the top of my driver to cover the TM logo alignment aid, and apparently THATS illegal for whatever reason but lead tape is grandfathered in and you can put some tape on it pending the level of adhesiveness of the tape?  

[MUNIGRIT]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

 

Agree.  When Bryson puts one in the gunch at 350 he has the strength to wedge it out of the cabbage.

 

Take another guy who's ball just trickles into the rough at 280.  He is 70 yards back trying to get it out with a 6 or 5 iron.

I swear it is one of those sayings that just gets repeated by people who aren't paying attention. Narrow the fairway and grow the rough! They have done that alot and they don't pay attention to who is winning these tournaments. Its up there with drive for show putt for dough crowd saying IMO.

[me05501]

Tiger seemed to embrace bifurcation which is something the governing bodies have been dead set against. 

 

There are plenty of examples of successful bifurcation in pro sports.

 

Pro baseball uses only wood bats while college teams still use composite bats. The size, shape and weight of the NCAA football is different from the NFL ball. Amateur boxers wear headgear while pros do not. 

 

There's no reason golf can't manage bifurcation.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by me05501

[Shilgy]

All this talk about “the pros hit it so far because of roll” is so off base. Did you know we can see average carry distance and average total distance on the tour’s website?  The roll is not even close to what many claim. At a very few events/holes yes. But not the norm.

carry 2021

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.y2021.html

 

total 2021

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y2021.html

 

The lack of roll of us get is likewise exaggerated imo.  From the tee it looks like very little while from overhead or the side on camera it looks immense.

[c7015]

12 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Tiger seemed to embrace bifurcation which is something the governing bodies have been dead set against. 

 

There are plenty of examples of successful bifurcation in pro sports.

 

Pro baseball uses only wood bats while college teams still use composite bats. The size, shape and weight of the NCAA football is different from the NFL ball. Amateur boxers wear headgear while pros do not. 

 

There's no reason golf can't manage bifurcation.  

 

 

I'm personally opposed to bifurcation as I want to know how my game measures vs the pros as close as possible but to to some degree the pros today are already playing different clubs, balls & conditions not available to the vast majority of golfers.

[me05501]

5 minutes ago, c7015 said:

 

 

I'm personally opposed to bifurcation as I want to know how my game measures vs the pros as close as possible but to to some degree the pros today are already playing different clubs, balls & conditions not available to the vast majority of golfers.

 

I think bifurcation will happen and I think it'll be about the golf ball. When that happens it will be interesting to see what better ams do. 

 

I know better players enjoy the fact that they can play the game the same way the pros do, but I've yet to meet anyone who refused to go along with "winter rules" or other amended situations you run into in a club setting. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by me05501

[Nard_S]

15 minutes ago, c7015 said:

 

 

I'm personally opposed to bifurcation as I want to know how my game measures vs the pros as close as possible but to to some degree the pros today are already playing different clubs, balls & conditions not available to the vast majority of golfers.

What would be stopping you?

Answer: Nothing.

What make you think you are doing it now?

Answer: You're not.

[KennyP]

1 hour ago, khalespace said:

 

Maybe pro golfers today are just hitting longer. If they are hitting 9 iron 180 yards is it because they are stronger than yesterday's pro golfers? There has not been many changes in these blade irons.

 

They are stronger and they are taught more athletic swings compatible with modern equipment.

 

That and the fact that their 9 iron has the loft of an old 7 iron.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by KennyP

[c7015]

5 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

What would be stopping you?

Answer: Nothing.

What make you think you are doing it now?

Answer: You're not.

 

What would stop me , nothing but it would be annoying. 

I play a lot of matches (fun betting ones to club c), in addition to handicap you would have to have adjustments for equipment when you play the guy in D bracket or during mens league etc. Would also make it harder to verify your opponent's equipment too in those kind of events. 

 

Point two is the premise of my original post, that the pros equipment is already basically bifurcated from that of most am's , although I wouldn't make the assumption on what people are or are not doing on this board. Lots of guys who have access to tour gear and lots of college/competitive golfers who very much take the game as seriously as a pro.  

[aenemated]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

Yep.  Today's 3 wood is bigger than a persimmon driver.  I think it has less to do with size as it does with forgiveness.

 

My Muirfield driver vs my TS2 5W 🙂

 

[Itsjustagame]

I'm pretty sure that overall golf gains viewers/participants from the long hitters. The appeal of hittting a 5 iron from 175 after your 265 yard drive just doesn't work on televison.