This is a topic that will irritate you, but make your handicap go down.

[DaveLeeNC]

This is kind of related and kind of different. As of 6 months ago I had lost my game to the point of giving it up. Just could not make anything close to consistent ball contact (age 70 at the time - was a 5 index golfer at age 65). 

 

Driver was never problem for me as put a ball on a tee and give me a toaster size clubhead and I was fine. So I stuck with my driver swing and pretty EVERYTHING else was a half swing. My goto club from 100 yards was a 6i. Nothing (except driver) went more the 130-140 yards in the air. But I could make decent ball contact. Note that this is much less swing than Monte is suggesting. 

 

At the time I did not carry a PW but my 50* gap wedge was a 55 yard club and my 45* 9i was somewhere in the low to mid 60's. The only thing that I could do with that swing was hit the ball low, but I could make solid contact and that kept me on the course.  BTW, lipped out for a almost hole in one on a 165 yard par 3 ('half' swing driver). 

 

Monte's NTC video has resurrected my full swing, so I don't resort to this often these days. But when you need a controlled, low runner it is a good shot to have in the bag. And, of course, any time you are inside full SW/LW range. 

 

Like I said - kind of related and kind of not. 

 

dave

 

ps. For a different side on Monte's suggestion decades ago I realized that 3w was my most inconsistent club. So for tee shots where accuracy over distance was the goal (or those rare holes where driver was too much club for me), I learned to hit a '20 yards off' swing with my driver. I called it my virtual 3w and is probably pretty close to Monte's 2 clubs off your wedges. 

[TourSpoon]

Driver 260, PW 130

 

This is a timely topic as I just picked up a portable launch monitor to dial in the partial wedges that I have identified as something holding me back. I probably overswing with the arms as when I hit the partial I feel like I have to stay through the shot more than normal so that I don't pull it.  The last round I played I spun 2 58s off the green as they were firmed up and a flighted shot would have been the correct call especially into the wind. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by TourSpoon
grammar

[Honixx]

According to my Arccos:

 

Driver: 287

PW: 139

[kylemd]

Love this thread! Thanks Monte.

Driver 220 

PW 100-115.

I have really concentrated on a shorter BS with focus on control esp with wedges and practice partial wedge shots all the time. My range usually has wind into you so you have to learn to knock em down. If you can control your swing to hit a lower flighted wedge ( believe me its spinning plenty)  you can deliver any other club that way too. I will practice hitting a seven (140 yrds max on a good day for me) 100 yrds. Great recovery shot and teaches you to control the trajectory and spin. 
Sure Id love to be able to bust a driver 270 plus but just dont have the speed to do it. 

Watch the tour pros ( Patrick Reed ) comes immediately to my mind. He is hitting partial shots all the time with a LAP or 3/4 swing. Sawed off follow through. 
I have had some of my best rounds warming up with LAP swings and concentrating on crisp SOLID contact. Translates to the other clubs. 
great thread. 

[cardoustie]

265, 140

[RainShadow]

On 11/28/2020 at 5:20 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

First things first.

 

1.  How far do you hit a decent driver under normal conditions?

2.  Under normal conditions, what distance do you pull a PW from?

 Recent Right Rotator cuff tear has stolen yards.

Drive: 235-240 total

PW: 115

 Your advice would probably suit me well, as I often come up short with both my PW and GW.......

 hitting the half/ three quarter longer club more often would likely shave 3-4 shots off my scores.

 Ironically, I was taught to do this years ago, and had just kind of left it behind due to the emphasis on distance and ego.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by RainShadow

[YMark]

6 hours ago, acekun said:

245 yard carry driver, 115 yard PW 

 

My other wedges are also much shorter than other players (at least what I've read on these forums). My 60 degree is 55 yards; 56 degree is 75 yards and GW is 95 yards.

 

With full swing, I can hit each club 5-7 yards further but have a harder time controlling trajectory, spin and miss left more often. I will hit a wedge with a full swing maybe once every 3 rounds or so. Last time I did it, I skulled my 56 degree over the green lol (to be fair, it was on the first hole of an early morning round). 

 

 

@acekun Interesting. Care to post what your typical yardage is for the rest of your irons? I'm always looking for more distance. Maybe I should be happy where I'm at. Thanks

Edited November 30, 2020 by YMark

[jbrunk]

240/115

 

Two questions: 1) To what degree does equipment factor into the equation?  Does the wider sole, hotter face, deeper CG, stronger loft of a GI/SGI wedge make it less versatile to the point where fine distance control on partial shots is unattainable?  I would guess modern GI/SGI wedge design tends to encourage the nuking mindset.

2) With wedges my best partial shots have a dead arm feel, active lower body.  Is it the same idea here, or better to keep the arms engaged through the strike?

 

Thanks 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, jbrunk said:

240/115

 

Two questions: 1) To what degree does equipment factor into the equation?  Does the wider sole, hotter face, deeper CG, stronger loft of a GI/SGI wedge make it less versatile to the point where fine distance control on partial shots is unattainable?  I would guess modern GI/SGI wedge design tends to encourage the nuking mindset.

2) With wedges my best partial shots have a dead arm feel, active lower body.  Is it the same idea here, or better to keep the arms engaged through the strike?

 

Thanks 

Watch how much more quiet the lower body is when pros hit partial wedges and pitches.

[acekun]

11 hours ago, YMark said:

 

@acekun Interesting. Care to post what your typical yardage is for the rest of your irons? I'm always looking for more distance. Maybe I should be happy where I'm at. Thanks

Sure, no problem. I'd caveat that my driver and wedges are my strength while my irons need improvement so I don't think I'm a great model. I'm averaging 8.5 GIRs lately, for frame of reference. 

 

These are my carry distances from turf (tee adds a couple yards). Carry and total distance are basically the same through 7 iron. My 6 iron and 5H get less than 5 yards roll (replacing my 5H with a 5 iron). With 4H-3W, I'm more certain about my total distance than carry. These are my playing distances, not how far I can hit them on the range. 

 

9 iron -- 130 yards 

8 - 140

7 - 152

6 - 161

5H - 172

4H - ~180 (total 185-190)

3H - ~200 (total 210-215)

3W - ~215 (total 220-230)

Driver -- ~245 (total 260-270)

 

If I am in between yardages, I always club up, even if it's a few yards. If I'm out 133 yards, it's a choked up 8 iron (want to transition to 3/4 and 1/2 shots shots that Monte advocates -- always done that with my wedges and it's money, not sure why I haven't done that with irons). 

 

I'd also say that I would love to hit each iron 10 yards further. But it's also not something I'm chasing. As I improve my swing, I think the distance will naturally come. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by acekun

[TheDeanAbides]

@MonteScheinblum as you missed my question, can you give a ballpark percentage we should be looking at? Is there a ratio we could be looking at? I see the benefit is this approach, but there are variables. 

 

For example, I don't have a lot of money for golf gear, so I use older tech. My drivers are never optimised so I don't know how much I'm leaving out there carrying it 230-240, whereas a 120 PW is comfortable and controlled. 

[Lefthook]

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s likely going to depend on skill level.

 

Not too many 15 caps are playing 3/4 four irons.

 

Usually 7/8 is the cutoff for most golfers.

That sounds like the right cutoff for me with irons.

 

I do not shy away from taking one or two clubs extra and swing easy when the swing is off, but I suffer from this when I'm swinging well.

 

I bet this approach can be effective with lofted hybrids and fw's as well. Hit an easy hybrid on a shot that requires a full 5 iron, for instance.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

@MonteScheinblum as you missed my question, can you give a ballpark percentage we should be looking at? Is there a ratio we could be looking at? I see the benefit is this approach, but there are variables. 

 

For example, I don't have a lot of money for golf gear, so I use older tech. My drivers are never optimised so I don't know how much I'm leaving out there carrying it 230-240, whereas a 120 PW is comfortable and controlled. 

I believe @Howard_Jones mentioned a 2:1 ratio for your driver distance:pw distance.  This is a loose guide though.

 

For example, someone with 250 yard drives, can hit 125 pw.  Reading the comments by others, there is a lot of examples of this 2:1 ratio.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Puttersaurus Rex

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

I believe @Howardjones mentioned a 2:1 ratio for your driver distance:pw distance.  This is a loose guide though.

 

For example, someone with 250 yard drives, can hit 125 pw.  Reading the comments by others, there is a lot of examples of this 2:1 ratio.

That's great, thank you. 

[phizzy30]

31 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

I believe @Howard_Jones mentioned a 2:1 ratio for your driver distance:pw distance.  This is a loose guide though.

 

For example, someone with 250 yard drives, can hit 125 pw.  Reading the comments by others, there is a lot of examples of this 2:1 ratio.

Very eye opening, bro.  Thank you for posting this.  I'm very close to that 2:1 ratio. 

[gators78]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:51 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

The thread on punch shots made me think of  discussing this.  So I just wanted to get some examples to show how golfers hit their wedges way too hard and too far and it makes it more difficult to manage distance because trajectory and spin are not consistent.  Almost without exception, golfers over the handicap of 0 improve their proximity when they hit more club,  with a shorter backswing, with less speed and keep trajectory and spin down on most shots.  
 

There’s no world long wedge contest, they are made for accuracy not distance.  You ever notice how higher level players have much shorter swings on wedges than driver?  Most of you know that even though I’m an old fat man, I can carry a driver 3 bills without much trouble, yet my PW is 130-135.  140 is NEVER a PW unless there is an extenuating circumstance.  

 

Whenever I have this discussion with people, here are the comments I get and what I respond.

 

1.  “I can easily hit it that far, that’s my stock PW.”  I don’t doubt you can, but why would you want to?

 

2.  “I’m a very good wedge player.”  I don’t doubt it, but you’re not on the PGA and even they are trying to be better.

 

3.  “I don’t do well hitting partial wedges.”  It’s not always a partial wedge, it managing the length of your swing better because it’s too long.

 

4.  “Tour players hit their wedges far, and high.”  Yes, but they are skilled enough and practice to manage trajectory, distance and spin...and have you every watched carefully at how many lower trajectory shots they hit inside 150 on the range and course?

 

5.  “The greens at my course are firm and I need to do that to hit it close to tucked pins.”  See Scott Fawcett’s thoughts on going for the pin.

 

Learn to hit all your short irons 2 clubs shorter than what you think you hit now with a shorter backswing.  This is especially helpful for those with excess arm swing in their backswing, but even if you go back to your full yardage, you’ll have another shot in your bag, but most will find a much better level of consistency not trying to hit short irons full (max distance).

 

 

Great stuff Monte, question though on the mechanics of hitting those lower, flighted, higher spinning wedge shots. When I try to slow down I take a bigger divot, and I have data from a monitor showing 6-7* down, higher launch, and spin kind of all over the place between 5-10k rpms. Every once in a while it'll feel like I totally thin one, and the numbers are perfect. Any techniques or fundamentals that are really key to make those shots work? It seems like these shots are hit with a good bit of shaft lean but only a slight downward angle of attack. I'm thinking elbow in front really applies here, but curious what you've seen works best.  

Edited November 30, 2020 by gators78

[DShepley]

I hit my driver around 280-290 and a full PW is 140 but I very rarely hit a full PW or full anything up to 6 or 7 iron.  I started playing about 25 years ago when the ball spun a bit more and wasn't as easy to control.  I was a baseball player who took to golf fairly quickly and landed at an 8 handicap in my second year.  I was stuck there for a while until I noticed that best players at my club, as well as the pros I saw on TV hardly ever had a full finish with anything under about a 7 iron.  My handicap dropped the quickest when I learned to hit shots less than full with 7 iron and down, shots flew lower, held straighter and it was a game changer.  Now even though I can hit a full PW 140, I very very rarely do...I will use it anywhere from 115 to about 130 depending on lie, etc.

 

I do notice on tour, the trend is that the players seem to all hit their middle irons very far so it doesn't look to me like the trend of playing shots 3/4 extends as far down the bag as say 25 years ago.  Having said that, the pros play on courses that are set up way different than we play and they need to use descent angle to their advantage...so, not a fair comparison because the game and conditions they play in is very very different to the game we play.

Edited November 30, 2020 by DShepley

[North Texas]

Reminds me of back in the 70's, there was a guy I knew with aspirations of making it to the tour. At that time, Miller Barber had some "connection" to the club that this guy's father was the pro at so Miller would work with the guy. Basically all this guy cared about was how far he could hit it. Always heard how when playing in a tournament, if someone in his group out drove him he completely lost focus and could only think about being the longest hitter in the group. 

 

Anyways, Miller would take this guy to the range and have him practice hitting his irons 30 yards shorter than normal. Told him that until he could learn to control his irons that well he could forget about ever making to the tour. He never grasped the concept. 

[justasgood]

Driver - Carry 245 total 265

PW - Carry 135

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

I believe @Howard_Jones mentioned a 2:1 ratio for your driver distance:pw distance.  This is a loose guide though.

 

For example, someone with 250 yard drives, can hit 125 pw.  Reading the comments by others, there is a lot of examples of this 2:1 ratio.

I'd avoid looking at a simple ratio and thinking "can" means should, and maybe that's not what you meant.  While there may be some ball speed correlation, if that's what it is, it's really not what Monte is talking about.  He hits it 300+, he's hitting his PW 130-135.  I'm probably not a great example, but as a single digit hitting my drives 250 (longer with good roll, lol) a 125 PW isn't a recipe for success for me at all.  Hitting it shorter, with more control is the issue.

 

I'd say if that ratio is in anyone's head as what they "should" do . . . maybe don't.  Experiment with distances, see what works.  I've always considered my 52 degree, now 50 degree wedge my "100 club", well, started using PW from that distance more and more this year with better consistency.  

[Hawkeye77]

21 minutes ago, North Texas said:

Reminds me of back in the 70's, there was a guy I knew with aspirations of making it to the tour. At that time, Miller Barber had some "connection" to the club that this guy's father was the pro at so Miller would work with the guy. Basically all this guy cared about was how far he could hit it. Always heard how when playing in a tournament, if someone in his group out drove him he completely lost focus and could only think about being the longest hitter in the group. 

 

Anyways, Miller would take this guy to the range and have him practice hitting his irons 30 yards shorter than normal. Told him that until he could learn to control his irons that well he could forget about ever making to the tour. He never grasped the concept. 

Monte is Mr. X!  Hitting your 150 club 100 yards for practice is such a great recipe.

[North Texas]

22 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Driver-285ish

normal PW-130

skulled PW-160

 

 

I can't hit driver or PW near as far as you, but I come close with the skulled wedge.

 

Driver - 225

Normal PW - 105

Skulled PW - Minimum 140

[TheDeanAbides]

46 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

I can't hit driver or PW near as far as you, but I come close with the skulled wedge.

 

Driver - 225

Normal PW - 105

Skulled PW - Minimum 140

We clearly need a new "How far do you skull your PW?" thread. 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

45 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I'd avoid looking at a simple ratio and thinking "can" means should, and maybe that's not what you meant.  While there may be some ball speed correlation, if that's what it is, it's really not what Monte is talking about.  He hits it 300+, he's hitting his PW 130-135.  I'm probably not a great example, but as a single digit hitting my drives 250 (longer with good roll, lol) a 125 PW isn't a recipe for success for me at all.  Hitting it shorter, with more control is the issue.

 

I'd say if that ratio is in anyone's head as what they "should" do . . . maybe don't.  Experiment with distances, see what works.  I've always considered my 52 degree, now 50 degree wedge my "100 club", well, started using PW from that distance more and more this year with better consistency.  

Of course, I agree.  "May" is appropriate, and I was hoping the loose correlation was the caveat.  I am sure we do not want to get started on PW lofts, as they can easily range from 42-48 degrees.  Not the point @Howard_Jones was making, and I was relaying.  Thanks!

[Sean2]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:31 AM, braincramp52 said:

Thank you so much for this thread Monte. It gives my game some credence since I've always practiced what you 're preaching! My buddies used to give me crap when I'd be hitting a 7 iron and they'd be hitting 9. If people would just let their egos get out of the way most would be better golfers. That's a tough thing to do when every manufacturer is screaming about distance.

It's not about what club you play, it's where it ends up. The game is about scoring, not what club you hit or how far. 🙂

[Mike_Honcho]

Just now, Sean2 said:

It's not about what club you play, it's where it ends up. The game is about scoring, not what club you hit or how far. 🙂

 

true story...i used to get wrapped around "oh, this is a #club shot..." and it's not/was not...it's "what club can i use to make this happen? "

[Sean2]

3 minutes ago, chile7236 said:

 

true story...i used to get wrapped around "oh, this is a #club shot..." and it's not/was not...it's "what club can i use to make this happen? "

Exactly. For example,  I've used an 8-iron from 80 yards...hitting a low runner that scoots up onto the green. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sean2

[Superbrit]

100% agree Monte, for years i had max numbers with all my clubs and i would always play to them, then i started playing more on windy links courses and my game completely changed

 

120 - 125 mas my number with a PW, nowadays depending on what im trying to do, i'd hit a "chipped" 8 iron or a "nice" 9 iron, my GIR has changed dramatically

Edited November 30, 2020 by Superbrit

[ChaosTheory]

13 hours ago, RainShadow said:

 Ironically, I was taught to do this years ago, and had just kind of left it behind due to the emphasis on distance and ego.

 

 

As I age, I'm very resistant to thinking that it's time to club up.  So this causes me to swing too hard instead.  But every time I finally accept the situation and club up, I begin playing better.   Yeah, you run out of effective clubs at some point, but there really isn't a good alternative.  Other than moving up of course.

[Divot License]

My driver is a steady 270 carry, my 46 degree pitching wedge is my 130 max to 120 standard club. I can stretch it further if I hit it like a mid iron but usually that doesn't work out well.