5 or lower handicaps describe your range sessions

BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,655 ✭✭

What are you doing from start to finish?
When it's a bad day at the range,how is it bad?
What's a great day at the range look like?

«1

Comments

  • bogeyprobogeypro The Original Bogeypro ClubWRX Posts: 3,232 ClubWRX

    For just a standard “maintenance” range session, not working on anything specific... just keeping the swing in order:

    I only hit about 75 balls...
    I warm up with a gap wedge maybe 10 to 12 balls. Then I’ll either do even number irons or off number irons (I rotate them). I’ll hit 6 or so pitching wedges, then 8, then 6, then 4. So that’s about another 25 or 30 balls. Then I’ll hit a few 3 woods and drivers. Another 10 balls . Finish off with wedges for the remaining 12 or 15 balls.

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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,601 ✭✭

    @bogeypro said:
    For just a standard “maintenance” range session, not working on anything specific... just keeping the swing in order:

    I only hit about 75 balls...
    I warm up with a gap wedge maybe 10 to 12 balls. Then I’ll either do even number irons or off number irons (I rotate them). I’ll hit 6 or so pitching wedges, then 8, then 6, then 4. So that’s about another 25 or 30 balls. Then I’ll hit a few 3 woods and drivers. Another 10 balls . Finish off with wedges for the remaining 12 or 15 balls.

    I seldom go to the range as I play 3, sometimes 4, times a week. I putt every day and try to chip a couple of days as well.

    But if I do go to the range, it's pretty much the same routine as yours.


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  • gripandripgripandrip Members Posts: 980 ✭✭

    It varies for me. I usually spend the most time with the scoring clubs. Start with full swing wedges, then dialing back to specific distances. Like you, I then walk up though my irons, always finishing off irons with 3i, as the course I play a lot requires it. I don’t spend a lot of time on driver or 3 wood unless I am struggling with them. These are usually very consistent for me. Other than that, I will go to the range to work on specific issues, or shot shapes. These sessions are typically shorter with only working through a few clubs.

    However, I probably spend as much or more time in the short game as on the actual range.

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,165 ✭✭

    Warm up w/ half speed drivers. Focus is on tempo, sequencing and ball flight/shot shape even though they're not going full distance. This gets me loose. Next I switch to 6 or 7 irons, look for nice shallow divots exiting left. Try to feel connected and get handle around to the left and strive for repeating ball flight. Wedges are next, working on hitting targets and flighting the ball down. Lots of 9 to 3 swings. Generally I'll hit a few fairway metals then end with full out drivers. Again, looking for solidness of strike, repeatable ball flight and trajectory, plus hitting target areas on range. Will often pick an imaginary boundary/corridor down the left side and try to hit 10 drives in a row without missing a single one left.

    Bad days I just go to the bar...lol! 😎

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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,371 ✭✭

    We don't have a short game range at our club with greens. So mostly what I'm doing is just working on full swings with every club more than anything. A "bad" session is usually just one when my ball flight isn't consistent for whatever reason.

    This is not an ideal way to practice, but my club doesn't have great facilities. This is why I have the ballstriking of a + and the <100yd game of a 5-6 though.

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  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 1,962 ✭✭

    Usually 3-4 sessions a week. It’s my hobby.

    One technical day with drill work, alignment aids, camera if needed or my teacher etc. I’ll work on full swing on this day or problem areas.

    The other day is on mostly wedge and feel shots or scoring type scenarios.

    One or two days spent chipping and putting. Working on stuff inside 60 yards. Headphones in and grinding short putts, lags and tricky chips etc.

  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,712 ClubWRX

    Oops, hope to be able to answer someday. ;-)

  • GolfChannelGolfChannel Orlando, FloridaMembers Posts: 1,737 ✭✭

    Range sessions are used to dial in feels and scoring. I never go bang balls unless my range session is purely stress relief.

    I take every shot with purpose. I ingrain the feel I am after with enough practice swings as necessary. Once I have the “feel” I do my normal pre-shot routine and swing. I never use the same club twice, but every swing has a purpose in terms of target and shot shape.

    I could never hit 75 balls in a range session or I’d never make it home and my wife would murder me unless my daughter was with me (we have a range in our backyard so i doubt this excuse would still work).

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  • IcemanYVRIcemanYVR Amateur Vancouver, BCMembers Posts: 1,115 ✭✭
    edited Apr 21, 2019 11:17pm #10

    I seldom go to the range just to whack balls. I hit the range 1-2 times a week. I usually hit 30-50 balls. The rest of the time I work on my short game. On the range, I hit half of the balls with wedges just to work on tempo and then a few short irons to targets, mid irons, and a couple of drivers. If I’m really off for some reason then I just walk off and give my extra balls to a junior.

    I spend most of my time working on my short game. Putting, chipping, bunker play etc. If I’m at the course for two hours. Usually on the short game area for 1 1/2 hours.

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  • Railroading13Railroading13 NebraskaMembers Posts: 619 ✭✭

    describe my range sessions... Frustration slowly turning into panic and anxiety as I try numerous drills to fix my driver swing.

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  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,646 ✭✭

    Depends on what is going on at the time.

    I generally breakdown the sessions into 3 categories.

    1. Hitting it well and just trying to get reps in.

    2. Working on something in my swing.

    3. Preparing for a tournament or play.

    I try to get a couple of my swings on video in either scenario. Even if I'm swinging it really well, I want to see it on video just so I can use that for when I'm not swinging well and possibly use as a reference to determine what is different.

    I usually start off hitting a few wedges to get the blood flowing and loosen up the joints. Lately, I've decided to loosen up on other ways and work on using slow motion practice right away and use the video right away. Just a way to checkup to make sure I'm hitting the key points of the swing that I want to hit. I tend to struggle with posture, arm structure and rotation in the backswing from time-to-time. I think when I just get up and hit balls...even if it's to warm up and loosen the joints...some bad habits can creep into the swing.

    If I'm hitting it satisfactory, I'll then hit a lot of 4-irons. I find the 4-iron to be a good club to use when I'm swinging satisfactory as it can really groove the swing unlike a 7 or 8 iron. However, I'm not nutty about using the 4-iron on video, so when I video my swing, I'll usually stick with the 7-iron.

    From there, it's a lot of randomization of practice. I'll aim at a target ont he left side of the range. Then another flag on the opposite side of the range. If I take a few bad swings in a row...I'll stop and do some slow motion practice.

    I'll usually get some 3-wood practice in and then a bunch of drivers. Randomize my targets with the driver. Then I'll hit a few 4-irons and then a few 7-irons. Then I'll go to 60-100 yard wedges. Then back to some 7-irons and 4-irons and drivers. Then I'm done.

    If I'm struggling and/or working on some things. It's a lot more filming. A lot of experimenting to see if certain things are changing the swing or not. Then if I find some things that seem to work, I'll hit 10-15 balls in a row and see if I can get a feel for it and then film again and see what the swing looks like. It's a lot of 7-irons. If I'm playing and want to put a respectable round in...I'll hit some drivers. I'll also work on my short game around the green because I'm not likely to hit many GIR's and I'll need that short game to make up for it.

    If I'm preparing for a tournament or some cash games...I'll do less videos of my swing. This is more external focus and trying to work on shots giving me difficulty and emulating situations on the course.

    RH

  • b.mattayb.mattay New WRX'er Members Posts: 487 ✭✭

    Never have had a set routine...some days I will hit a bunch of pitches, other days a bunch of semi-full wedges or some days I like to work with big punch slices/hooks to find the extremes in my swing. I rarely hit a bunch of full out shots in a row though.

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  • tyorke1tyorke1 Members Posts: 2,220 ✭✭

    everyday 1-2 buckets of wedges, 2-3 long clubs, that's the range. Short game chips, long putts, some short putts if I need it, not big on short putting if no need just creates problems but lots of long putting. bunker when I can get in one we don't have a practice bunker

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,897 ✭✭
    edited Apr 22, 2019 12:21pm #15

    I usually hit 50-75 balls first thing in the morning. Usually start with 7-8 irons. 7 iron 3/4 swings first. Usually all draws to feel some release. Then I’ll go to a full swing fade to feel the left to right shot. Then backup to a full high draw 8 iron. And vary in a few cut swings too. When I’ve hit all the balls at the 164 target I’m done. After lunch or late afternoon ( depending on my work schedule ) I then go hit those same 50-75 balls back the opposite direction which is now a slightly elevated tee box to my wedge range. Which is 100 120 and 135 yards. I’ll vary flight and direction each shot with these. Swapping from sand wedge to pitching wedge off and on. Last. I’ll finish the day just before dark with a shot that I’ve found to be Uber useful. It’s a 35-50 yard pitch to an elevated “green” . It’s from the wedge targets back up to the tee box that I started the day with. A flat , blind landing area with just a single target peeking above the terrace row that Guards the front. This perfectly mimics the blind approach left on a lot of par 5 3rd shots or short par 4s. The 50 yard half lob wedge is now a no thought shot for me. So I basically make a circuit. Once or twice a week I mix in long iron and driver sessions. I also putt everyday. Unfortunately I find that to be the most difficult part of the game. And have no advice for what will work with that. Lol.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,745 ✭✭

    Pre-round warm up:
    30 or so balls, just to get loose and find out what I have that day. Last 2 or three balls hitting the shot I plan to hit of the first tee.

    Maintenance:
    I'm hitting it well. Just play shots to targets. Change targets every time, play lots of different shots. Just fooling around and having fun.

    Solving a problem:
    I know what to do to hit good shots and I know that if I do it I will hit good shots. Therefore diagnosis is a matter of thinking about what I'm not doing, or not doing well, to cause the problem. I arrive at my theory of the cause, decide what one thing to work on, then go to the range and work on that one thing starting with wedges and working up. One I get it I'm done. Go practice putting and chipping if I want but no floundering around on the range looking for something that will work.

    Rarely the one thing isn't the right one thing. Time for more thought.

    Steve

  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,270 ✭✭
    edited Apr 22, 2019 3:32pm #17

    I’m not inside 5 yet, but I’m a single digit that’s trending down thanks, in no small part, to reshaping a lot of my practice. If my putting continues to improve like it has been, I may approach 5 by the end of the year.

    First things first, I try to putt as often as possible (daily). If I’m home, I practice short putts on some flat, firm worn-out carpet that rolls like a green. At the course, I’ll often start with a few minutes of putting before visiting the range only to return for a big putting session afterward.

    Once on the range, I like to practice the types of shots I expect to see and hit. Given that I’m a reasonably good player, my goal is to play more and practice less. When I am practicing, I'll do a little bit of everything. Once warmed up, I'll hit a variety of clubs in a somewhat random order at specific targets. This challenges me to focus and develop control over a variety of things.

    I try to avoid strictly going to the range to hit balls. I don’t want to plod my way through bags of balls beat mid-irons. I’ve stopped spending afternoons at the range hitting bag upon bag and as soon as I feel like I'm getting in the zone it's a signal to stop.

    If at any point I do feel like I’m the zone then I’ll make a point of flirting with different shots to see how well I can produce them in just one or two tries: high draw, low hook, big cut, low punch, etc.

    And of course, if I’m not quite in the zone then I avoid getting too ornate and just try to hit it as straight as possible regardless of club.

    Otherwise, my normal session starts with a few half wedges which evolve into full wedges as I warm up. Afterwards I’ll usually hit something like a 9i followed by a 5i or 6i just looking for crisp contact, good height and minimal curvature. I focus on trying to get a good, controlled tempo rather than trying to max out distance. How many irons I hit usually depends on my swing. If I'm striping it there’s no need to keep going. Nevertheless, I try not to get too upset if I’m not hitting it perfectly that day.

    Energy level is critical. Going to the range when your body is tired and worn out is a surefire killer. Being sluggish can really eat at your ball-striking and undermine your ability to fix something that's out of order. If I sense I just don’t quite have it on a certain day, I try to let it go and not stress about it.

    I always include hybrid, fairway and driver in a long game session but I pace myself. I will hop back and forth between those and the irons/wedges randomly to break it up once I’m fully warmed-up. Getting warm may take 5 swings or it may take more. If I don't get there in 5 though, it's probably going to be a clunky session.

    But I never hit 5 or 10 drivers in a row, for instance. And I don’t hit more than a bag with the long game. If I get a second bag to take to the range which is now kind of rare since I play a lot, most of that second bag is dedicated to just partial wedges and maybe some flighted-short irons. I’ll vary yardages and try to hit some lob shots as well.

    As far as short game, I mix it up. Sometimes I go to the short game area. Sometimes I practice with a few balls on the course if it’s not crowded. I often chip and pitch at home off carpet. And I’m not afraid to pitch some 10- and 15-yd shots on the range while other guys are hitting 200-yds out there.

    Whatever you do, just focus on what applies to playing golf and forget the rest.

    Post edited by MelloYello on
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  • iHititStraightSometimesiHititStraightSometimes Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited Apr 22, 2019 2:10pm #18

    After stretching/getting loose, I normally start with 10-15 LWs. Normally starting at 50 yards and going back to around 95 yards at the end. Then I'll go to my GW for about 8 shots. Usually trying to focus on trajectory. Then I'll go even/odd clubs depending on the day. If odds, I'll hit about ten 9i really trying to dial in distance. Then about eight 7i, then five 5i, four 3h, four 3w, 8-10 drivers. Then I'll hit about 25 wedge shots. Playing all kinds of different distances, trajectories, shapes. I'll then hit about 4 more drivers. Then I'll finish with around 5 or so 7i. I finish with my 7i as it is one I normally hit well so I want to leave the range with positive thoughts.

    If I am not having a good practice session and my swing feels off, I work on the no-throw drill (Gankas), and then hit wedges. I very rarely will try to hit my longer clubs while fighting my swing. I've done this in the past and it has not worked well for me - I tend to pick up some bad habits. Since I don't get to play/practice much (practice 1-2 times a week, play about every other week), I don't want to spend one of my only days at the golf course hitting bad shots/making bad swings.

  • GMN_02GMN_02 Memeber New JerseyMembers Posts: 191 ✭✭

    Warm-up with some wedges, not focusing on aiming at anything just worried about contact.

    Usually use 3/4 of my balls on going between 5 shots going 9 oclock to 3 oclock working on a feel or a move, than 3 full swings to try to ingrain it. Will do this with different clubs from driver to wedge. I end with either wedges at targets or playing "9 holes" in my mind from my local track.

  • crapulacrapula Golf! Members Posts: 1,783 ✭✭

    Before a round:
    Mostly partial shots with wedges and mid irons, high/ low left/ right. Then some full shots with driver, long/mid irons, wedges. I'll hit some over exaggerated hooks/ slices high/ low with mostly long irons/ driver/ woods. Then finish with partial wedges. All about contact.
    Practice:
    No idea, whatever needs to be done to get the next piece of the puzzle in place.

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  • thebogeyputtthebogeyputt NYCMembers Posts: 51 ✭✭

    @RichieHunt said:
    Depends on what is going on at the time.

    I generally breakdown the sessions into 3 categories.

    1. Hitting it well and just trying to get reps in.

    2. Working on something in my swing.

    3. Preparing for a tournament or play.

    I try to get a couple of my swings on video in either scenario. Even if I'm swinging it really well, I want to see it on video just so I can use that for when I'm not swinging well and possibly use as a reference to determine what is different.

    I usually start off hitting a few wedges to get the blood flowing and loosen up the joints. Lately, I've decided to loosen up on other ways and work on using slow motion practice right away and use the video right away. Just a way to checkup to make sure I'm hitting the key points of the swing that I want to hit. I tend to struggle with posture, arm structure and rotation in the backswing from time-to-time. I think when I just get up and hit balls...even if it's to warm up and loosen the joints...some bad habits can creep into the swing.

    If I'm hitting it satisfactory, I'll then hit a lot of 4-irons. I find the 4-iron to be a good club to use when I'm swinging satisfactory as it can really groove the swing unlike a 7 or 8 iron. However, I'm not nutty about using the 4-iron on video, so when I video my swing, I'll usually stick with the 7-iron.

    From there, it's a lot of randomization of practice. I'll aim at a target ont he left side of the range. Then another flag on the opposite side of the range. If I take a few bad swings in a row...I'll stop and do some slow motion practice.

    I'll usually get some 3-wood practice in and then a bunch of drivers. Randomize my targets with the driver. Then I'll hit a few 4-irons and then a few 7-irons. Then I'll go to 60-100 yard wedges. Then back to some 7-irons and 4-irons and drivers. Then I'm done.

    If I'm struggling and/or working on some things. It's a lot more filming. A lot of experimenting to see if certain things are changing the swing or not. Then if I find some things that seem to work, I'll hit 10-15 balls in a row and see if I can get a feel for it and then film again and see what the swing looks like. It's a lot of 7-irons. If I'm playing and want to put a respectable round in...I'll hit some drivers. I'll also work on my short game around the green because I'm not likely to hit many GIR's and I'll need that short game to make up for it.

    If I'm preparing for a tournament or some cash games...I'll do less videos of my swing. This is more external focus and trying to work on shots giving me difficulty and emulating situations on the course.

    RH

    how long does take you usually? i warm up with at least 15 minutes of slow motion and video work too

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,646 ✭✭

    @mchung.nyc212 said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Depends on what is going on at the time.

    I generally breakdown the sessions into 3 categories.

    1. Hitting it well and just trying to get reps in.

    2. Working on something in my swing.

    3. Preparing for a tournament or play.

    I try to get a couple of my swings on video in either scenario. Even if I'm swinging it really well, I want to see it on video just so I can use that for when I'm not swinging well and possibly use as a reference to determine what is different.

    I usually start off hitting a few wedges to get the blood flowing and loosen up the joints. Lately, I've decided to loosen up on other ways and work on using slow motion practice right away and use the video right away. Just a way to checkup to make sure I'm hitting the key points of the swing that I want to hit. I tend to struggle with posture, arm structure and rotation in the backswing from time-to-time. I think when I just get up and hit balls...even if it's to warm up and loosen the joints...some bad habits can creep into the swing.

    If I'm hitting it satisfactory, I'll then hit a lot of 4-irons. I find the 4-iron to be a good club to use when I'm swinging satisfactory as it can really groove the swing unlike a 7 or 8 iron. However, I'm not nutty about using the 4-iron on video, so when I video my swing, I'll usually stick with the 7-iron.

    From there, it's a lot of randomization of practice. I'll aim at a target ont he left side of the range. Then another flag on the opposite side of the range. If I take a few bad swings in a row...I'll stop and do some slow motion practice.

    I'll usually get some 3-wood practice in and then a bunch of drivers. Randomize my targets with the driver. Then I'll hit a few 4-irons and then a few 7-irons. Then I'll go to 60-100 yard wedges. Then back to some 7-irons and 4-irons and drivers. Then I'm done.

    If I'm struggling and/or working on some things. It's a lot more filming. A lot of experimenting to see if certain things are changing the swing or not. Then if I find some things that seem to work, I'll hit 10-15 balls in a row and see if I can get a feel for it and then film again and see what the swing looks like. It's a lot of 7-irons. If I'm playing and want to put a respectable round in...I'll hit some drivers. I'll also work on my short game around the green because I'm not likely to hit many GIR's and I'll need that short game to make up for it.

    If I'm preparing for a tournament or some cash games...I'll do less videos of my swing. This is more external focus and trying to work on shots giving me difficulty and emulating situations on the course.

    RH

    how long does take you usually? i warm up with at least 15 minutes of slow motion and video work too

    In most situations it takes about an hour. If I'm working on my swing...probably close to 90 minutes to 2 hours.

    RH

  • rich srich s Members Posts: 537 ✭✭

    i'm pretty much done with full shots at the range. If my wedges are dialed in, my long game is crazy good. The only full shots I do take are specific trajectories and controlled punch out shots. If I am actually playing after the session I also practice whatever my first tee shot will be.

  • freeze16172002freeze16172002 Members Posts: 97 ✭✭

    Hitting a bucket a balls? after about 10 my ADD kicks in. I go to the chipping or putting area before rounds, thats about all the practice I do.

  • Ghost of SneadGhost of Snead Members Posts: 2,747 ✭✭

    @Frozen Divots said:
    I don’t practice walking, handwriting, riding a bike, driving, using an eating utensil, sleeping or golf.

    The range is for killing time, not much more than that.

    Lots of PGA Tour pros just killing time ...

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  • gioguy21gioguy21 NJMembers Posts: 7,447 ✭✭
    edited Apr 23, 2019 1:41pm #26

    whenever i hit balls (typically 150 or so jumbo bucket);

    • Warmup
    • 10 or so 52* wedges to warm up get the muscles moving
    • 10 or so 7i to get the full swing going
    • 5 5i's
    • 5 3i's
    • 5 3w's
    • 5 drivers
    • 10 52's to targets
    • 10 59's to targets
    • 20 7i's working on swing thoughts, fixes, etc
    • 10 4i's
    • 10 5w's
    • 15 drivers
    • 10 8i's
    • 10 pw's
    • 10 52's
    • 5 59's

    typically - this is my game plan going in.

    Epic Flash SZ / 9* (set N/S) / Fuji Pro 2.0 TS 6X tipped 1.25"
    Epic Flash SZ / 3+ (set +1/D) / DF 70TX tipped 1.50"
    Epic Flash / 5 (set N/S) / BF 90TX Tipped 1.75"
    785 / 3-PW / PX 7.0
    RTX4 / 52, 59 / DG S400
    Piretti Tour 801R / 35.5"

  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,716 ClubWRX
    edited Apr 24, 2019 2:18am #27

    I probably go to the range once or twice a month and that is a good month.

    I am usually trying to dial in shots to tucked pins. My back and hip are so bad, I can't spend much time hitting longer clubs, so I will hit 7, 8, 9 and imagine that there is water right or water left or a BaCk pin or a front pin, or any combo thereof. 30-45 mins max.

    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • GSDriverGSDriver Members Posts: 598 ✭✭

    Range? We play out of the trunk. Might waste a good shot that wouldn't count if went to the range.

    Epic Speeder 661
    Rogue 4 Wood Evenflow 75 Blue
    Epic Hybrids 3/4/5
    Apex Pro 6-P Recoil 110 F4
    MD Slate Forged 52
    PM Grind 56/60
    Odyssey 7S
    All grips except putter are Iomic Sticky 2.3
  • StanksStanks Everything I post is confrontational Members Posts: 1,247 ✭✭

    Jello shots, laughing at the duffer actually duff a shot, stretch, comparing the latest Loudmouth pants we just scored for an unbelievable price on ebay (3 sizes to small or big...never right), cleaning our clubs, maybe hit a shot or two by walking onto the range about 40 yards and picking up a few balls and walking back to hit, talking about the cart girl, talking about how we wish we were at Torrey (overrated), Tigers back, Pat Reed is a mean dude, Sergio is a joke, etc. etc.
    Listen man, hope I'm getting through to you. It doesn't matter what THEY do at the range. Do what YOU do. This isn't high school and you're not getting judged by the better players.

  • BuzzkillBuzzkill Marshals Posts: 6,760 mod

    No range time for me, just daily rounds!

    Cleveland, Nike, Taylormade, Titleist, Vessel
    Location:  Colorado Springs, CO
    Handicap:  3
  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,655 ✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019 6:25am #31

    Wanted to ask a follow up question to you disciplined guys: (did not make a new thread. Hooray!)
    What is your acceptable margin of error at the range?
    For example with driver. I.e. 1 out of 6 shots going offline, etc. etc...

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