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A tour caddie with a push cart?

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

  • Creedo77Creedo77 Members Posts: 750 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll also add that if you were to survey all the tour caddies next week on whether they'd want to use a push cart or not I'd say less than 10% would want one. Nothing about being shown as weak or whatever you want to call it but just the fact that you'd look like a fool and it'd probably be a pain in the **** to push it around.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 1:08am #64

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

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  • MaxBuckMaxBuck Members Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    I hear you. Once I was at a dinner party but it got sidelined. Host and I had to go help change a tire on a car. There were two 20 year old boys as passengers in it............I was disgusted.

    Why on earth would anyone change a tire who isn't being paid to do it? That's what AAA membership is for.

    I just don't get the notion that the basis for being a "man" is doing work that no one enjoys doing. **** that.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 1:16am #66

    @MaxBuck said:

    @Nard_S said:

    I hear you. Once I was at a dinner party but it got sidelined. Host and I had to go help change a tire on a car. There were two 20 year old boys as passengers in it............I was disgusted.

    Why on earth would anyone change a tire who isn't being paid to do it? That's what AAA membership is for.

    I just don't get the notion that the basis for being a "man" is doing work that no one enjoys doing. **** that.

    Lol. Well. The fact that I could change the tire , buy dinner and eat it before the AAA grease **** arrived is reason enough. If it’s my wife or daughter , no chance I call said grease **** to her side alone on the highway instead of going myself. This is said from personal experience. AAA is just a marketing tool. They use independent tow companies for said service. A buddy of mine runs one of these. And the jabronies he employs to do this job is down right funny. AAA isn’t anything past the local tow company. Sooo many services like this That trick folks into paying for a membership.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

    I carried my own for the first decade I played in the 2000's, sure not in a tournament but plenty. College golfers usually don't have caddies either I believe. I disagree that it's a legitimate need... it's a convenience with roots in ancient golf that was exclusively for the privileged class. Agreed that push carts aren't always easier, but this premise that somehow a push cart is emasculating is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical hearing it come from PGA Tour pros that never carry their bags.

    I'm nor pro or against caddies using push carts, but I do enjoy calling out hypocrisy when I see it :)

  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Members Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @2bGood said:

    @Buzzkill said:
    Caddies with push/pull carts will happen eventually but probably not soon enough - it's ridiculous the amount of crap they've got to carry, even those who are fortunate enough to have a dual strap.

    I know! Ridiculous that a guy who's job is to carry a bag - has to 'carry a bag'.

    Maybe they could have an emotional support mule carry the bag for them.

    When did we get so soft as society?

    Agricultural Revolution

    So about 10,000-12,000 years ago

    swing is irrelevant, score is everything

    just say NO.... to practice swings
  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    It is totally, ridiculous pro's don't mow the course before their round too. wimps.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 2:10am #70

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

    I carried my own for the first decade I played in the 2000's, sure not in a tournament but plenty. College golfers usually don't have caddies either I believe. I disagree that it's a legitimate need... it's a convenience with roots in ancient golf that was exclusively for the privileged class. Agreed that push carts aren't always easier, but this premise that somehow a push cart is emasculating is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical hearing it come from PGA Tour pros that never carry their bags.

    I'm nor pro or against caddies using push carts, but I do enjoy calling out hypocrisy when I see it :)

    Well I’m not the one arguing “ manhood “ or the like. I use a pushcart myself now. As of 2 months ago.

    I’ll agree that it is a convenience in theory .... but when it becomes a need is when considering competition. If everyone had to carry , sure. It’s all equal. When some do and some don’t , you realize what it Costs you at times. It was only those 2-3 month sets of summer rounds that you saw a difference. But it’s real when it shows itself. When you lose your legs or back mid round , you are playing defense from there on out. You don’t get that with a cart. Ever. But that fact doesn’t compute for a caddie. He/she doesn’t have a score to shoot.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darth Putter said:

    @2bGood said:

    @Buzzkill said:
    Caddies with push/pull carts will happen eventually but probably not soon enough - it's ridiculous the amount of crap they've got to carry, even those who are fortunate enough to have a dual strap.

    I know! Ridiculous that a guy who's job is to carry a bag - has to 'carry a bag'.

    Maybe they could have an emotional support mule carry the bag for them.

    When did we get so soft as society?

    Agricultural Revolution

    So about 10,000-12,000 years ago

    I'm sure the same people calling it > @2bGood said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    It is totally, ridiculous pro's don't mow the course before their round too. wimps.

    Bad comparison but okay, I'll play if you want to keep it up :)

  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Members Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bscinstnct said:
    Caddies be replace by AI earpiece and an

    Uber cart.

    AI is already rivaling medical experts in cancer detection. You think it can’t advise club selection on an approach shot?

    Bryson prolly looking into this as we speak ; )

    coming soon...

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,506 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

    I carried my own for the first decade I played in the 2000's, sure not in a tournament but plenty. College golfers usually don't have caddies either I believe. I disagree that it's a legitimate need... it's a convenience with roots in ancient golf that was exclusively for the privileged class. Agreed that push carts aren't always easier, but this premise that somehow a push cart is emasculating is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical hearing it come from PGA Tour pros that never carry their bags.

    I'm nor pro or against caddies using push carts, but I do enjoy calling out hypocrisy when I see it :)

    I don't think push carts emasculate anything, personally they never made sense to me. Feel like I'm on a Costco Naked and Afraid expedition. Pushing anything is not an efficient use of energy.Pulling is better. Thats just physics 101. Pro caddies have a gig and part of it they have to lug 25lbs around. They're real job is to help keep dude golfer's head in the tournament. I know guys that have done the Continental divide and AT with that same weight. They survived just fine.

  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,294 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Darth Putter said:

    @2bGood said:

    @Buzzkill said:
    Caddies with push/pull carts will happen eventually but probably not soon enough - it's ridiculous the amount of crap they've got to carry, even those who are fortunate enough to have a dual strap.

    I know! Ridiculous that a guy who's job is to carry a bag - has to 'carry a bag'.

    Maybe they could have an emotional support mule carry the bag for them.

    When did we get so soft as society?

    Agricultural Revolution

    So about 10,000-12,000 years ago

    Early Stone Age. 2MM years ago....

    Society went soft as soon as kids started using group hunting techniques and stones to bring down water buffalo instead of jumping on their backs from a tree and head butting them into submission.

  • brianhorne8brianhorne8 Members Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @jobin said:
    "Seeing pushcarts on a pro tour is bad bad bad for the aesthetic sense of the game. "
    Plenty of pushcarts seen on Euro, Asian, Japan and Korean pro golf tours. No one thinks twice about a pretty young girl pushing a trolley with golf gear earning a day's pay to accommodate someone paying big $$ to enjoy a day in the sun running after a little white ball.
    And maybe we ought all to look back at golf photos of 100 years ago when Walter Hagen and his companions were wearing coats and ties and then comment on traditional golf 'aesthetics'.
    And of course we cannot know on these pages if anyone making comments about the PRO TOUR and pro caddies is indeed a PRO ON TOUR. So, probably, we are all AMS pointing fingers.
    In my experience very, very few golfers in USA have ever used a caddy.

    Are you taking pro or current club caddies ? If pro then that’s my point. You’ve illustrated it perfectly. A pushcart opens the pool of potential caddies x2 at least. Current caddies wouldn’t want them. You guys are arguing for something that I guarantee isn’t wanted.

    Does it though? And even if it does, if your caddy is there for more than just carrying or pushing a cart, wouldn't you want the option to have the most informed person possible? I fail to see what's wrong with opening up the caddy pool by 2x all for the sake of 'the good old days.'

    Traditionalists need to be more open to new tech, and this is coming from someone who carries exclusively.

  • brianhorne8brianhorne8 Members Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Creedo77 said:

    @llewol007 said:
    Its part of the Job. I dont want to see a caddie pushing a cart.

    and believe me (we tour caddies) dont want to be pushing a f*cking cart around either

    As someone who has no issue with seeing tour caddies pushing carts, I totally agree. Pushing a cart uphill is much harder than carrying up that same hill. It's the reason I still carry exclusively. On a flat course is one thing, but on the majority of courses with elevations changes, I'd imagine your typical tour caddy is going to opt for carrying.

  • Hack DaddyHack Daddy Members Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @gsea33 said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @Nard_S said:
    Honestly, if we are that sissified that caddies need a cart, let's just quit all of it and pass me a pistol.

    There is no hope man.

    Having an 11 year old boy , who I force to actually work at home , get good grades and play outside. lol. He and those of his age up to around 25 or 30 are constantly looking for a “ hack” as they call it. Which is code for a lazy way out. I rail against it everyday. Their hacks generally take twice as long once you take the time to do it over the right way.

    I hear you. Once I was at a dinner party but it got sidelined. Host and I had to go help change a tire on a car. There were two 20 year old boys as passengers in it............I was disgusted.

    I'm disgusted you actually did it. Thats why they can get away with it.

    It was dead winter and snowing hard. It was the host's daughter who was driving. What Father does not go to their girl in distress?

    As the father of a daughter, yes, I would have gone.
    But those boys and I would have been standing out there in the snow having a "Teaching you what your daddy didn't - 101" lesson.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @brianhorne8 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @jobin said:
    "Seeing pushcarts on a pro tour is bad bad bad for the aesthetic sense of the game. "
    Plenty of pushcarts seen on Euro, Asian, Japan and Korean pro golf tours. No one thinks twice about a pretty young girl pushing a trolley with golf gear earning a day's pay to accommodate someone paying big $$ to enjoy a day in the sun running after a little white ball.
    And maybe we ought all to look back at golf photos of 100 years ago when Walter Hagen and his companions were wearing coats and ties and then comment on traditional golf 'aesthetics'.
    And of course we cannot know on these pages if anyone making comments about the PRO TOUR and pro caddies is indeed a PRO ON TOUR. So, probably, we are all AMS pointing fingers.
    In my experience very, very few golfers in USA have ever used a caddy.

    Are you taking pro or current club caddies ? If pro then that’s my point. You’ve illustrated it perfectly. A pushcart opens the pool of potential caddies x2 at least. Current caddies wouldn’t want them. You guys are arguing for something that I guarantee isn’t wanted.

    Does it though? And even if it does, if your caddy is there for more than just carrying or pushing a cart, wouldn't you want the option to have the most informed person possible? I fail to see what's wrong with opening up the caddy pool by 2x all for the sake of 'the good old days.'

    Traditionalists need to be more open to new tech, and this is coming from someone who carries exclusively.

    Good or bad on that depends on who you are. If you’re a caddie it’s competition for your job.

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  • llewol007llewol007 4KidsGolfer ClubWRX Posts: 3,440 ClubWRX

    Let’s stay on topic. Don’t under value the importance of the caddie. I don’t. Why do you think you see players hold on to theirs for such a long time. A big part of the caddie’s job is to help the Tour player keep an even keel during the tournament. But when it comes to carrying the bag, that is also a part of their responsibilities. Whom ever is given that task, that’s what it is.

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  • Bingo1976Bingo1976 Members Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 3:25am #81

    @Nard_S said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

    I carried my own for the first decade I played in the 2000's, sure not in a tournament but plenty. College golfers usually don't have caddies either I believe. I disagree that it's a legitimate need... it's a convenience with roots in ancient golf that was exclusively for the privileged class. Agreed that push carts aren't always easier, but this premise that somehow a push cart is emasculating is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical hearing it come from PGA Tour pros that never carry their bags.

    I'm nor pro or against caddies using push carts, but I do enjoy calling out hypocrisy when I see it :)

    I don't think push carts emasculate anything, personally they never made sense to me. Feel like I'm on a Costco Naked and Afraid expedition. Pushing anything is not an efficient use of energy.Pulling is better. Thats just physics 101. Pro caddies have a gig and part of it they have to lug 25lbs around. They're real job is to help keep dude golfer's head in the tournament. I know guys that have done the Continental divide and AT with that same weight. They survived just fine.

    The concept of anything further emasculating a sport that 80 year old women can play is hilarious. I'd have no issues with caddies using electric carts if it protects their backs, and I am sure this could be yet another revenue stream for the Tours as the trolley makers move in...

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  • Dr. BombayDr. Bombay Members Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭

    @3whacker said:
    just a matter of time till we see the type of carts the guys and gals used at the NCAA's ...my guess less than five years...maybe even three

    No chance on PGA Tour.
    The highest level I am aware that allows them is the Ladies European Tour. LPGA Tour does not. Symetra Tour does.

  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,506 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Bingo1976 said:

    @Nard_S said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    I find it hilarious that soo many are against caddies existing. As if the caddie is an indentured servant. Wth ? They are paid Handsomely in a lot of cases. Go poll the caddies and see if they want push carts .... guarantee majority doesn’t. Why ? They know their ability to carry is job security. Push carts could eventually equal their lack of employment. You guys assume caddies are too stupid to know that. A funny irony.

    Don't you see the irony in all this? The ridiculousness of all of this is that some are saying caddies using pushcarts is a sign of softness or weakness. How about the guys that need someone to carry their bag?!!!!

    Have you ever walked and carried during a tournament round ? It is a hindrance. One is a legitimate need. The other is somebody wanting to make a job that is literary to carry into a “ anybody can do it “ position. It’s a slap to all pro caddies in my opinion. And on top of that it wouldn’t make the job easier for most. Carts don’t push themselves. One is a need the other is a want.

    I carried my own for the first decade I played in the 2000's, sure not in a tournament but plenty. College golfers usually don't have caddies either I believe. I disagree that it's a legitimate need... it's a convenience with roots in ancient golf that was exclusively for the privileged class. Agreed that push carts aren't always easier, but this premise that somehow a push cart is emasculating is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical hearing it come from PGA Tour pros that never carry their bags.

    I'm nor pro or against caddies using push carts, but I do enjoy calling out hypocrisy when I see it :)

    I don't think push carts emasculate anything, personally they never made sense to me. Feel like I'm on a Costco Naked and Afraid expedition. Pushing anything is not an efficient use of energy.Pulling is better. Thats just physics 101. Pro caddies have a gig and part of it they have to lug 25lbs around. They're real job is to help keep dude golfer's head in the tournament. I know guys that have done the Continental divide and AT with that same weight. They survived just fine.

    The concept of anything further emasculating a sport that 80 year old women can play is hilarious. I'd have no issues with caddies using electric carts if it protects their backs, and I am sure this could be yet another revenue stream for the Tours as the trolley makers move in...

    There's a bigger risk of back injury swinging in a poor manner or sitting at a desk all day than carrying a golf bag. Caddies might walk 5 miles in 5 hours. That's half the pace an average person can walk. This nonsense that this is a inhumane, byzantine ritual established by "the man" is making me nauseous.

  • short and straightshort and straight Members Posts: 183 ✭✭✭

    Bringing us back the the start of my thread though, does anyone know if there is an actual rule on tour prohibiting their use?
    I'm also entertained by all the people who appear unnecessarily offended by the use of pushcarts by a caddie. Obviously PGA tour have the ability to carry bags. The issue is whether they would prefer to use a push cart, or if there is a rule prohibiting it.

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  • vmanvman Members Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Pushcarts and electric trollies are widely used by caddies on the European Seniors Tour.

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  • dbleagdbleag Members Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a buddy who just caddied for a millennial in the Korn Ferry Qualifier.
    Due to several reasons, he went out and bought a push cart for the final two rounds, so it must be OK on that tour.

  • Ty_WebbTy_Webb New YorkMembers Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @short and straight said:
    Bringing us back the the start of my thread though, does anyone know if there is an actual rule on tour prohibiting their use?
    I'm also entertained by all the people who appear unnecessarily offended by the use of pushcarts by a caddie. Obviously PGA tour have the ability to carry bags. The issue is whether they would prefer to use a push cart, or if there is a rule prohibiting it.

    I'm pretty sure that either they're banned or the caddies have figured out it doesn't make sense to have them. I heard that one of the biggest issues with using a push cart is it make it virtually impossible to get through a crowd of people. Players hit it outside the ropes sometimes and their caddie has to bring the clubs out there with them. Try bringing a push cart through a crowd eager not to lose their prime viewing location and potentially in long grass. When you're out with your buddies, it's fine to leave your cart with the clubs at the edge of the fescue or trees. Can't do that on tour or some of those clubs are quite liable to go walkabout.

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