Reed or Phil... Who's Was Worse???

[mosesgolf]

Phil didn't "cheat". He pretty much said screw it and penalize me. Reed he tried to get away with something, put hand in cookie jar and got caught. Phil had no intention of hiding anything. Make no mistake. Reed was blatantly trying to cheat. Phil wasn't.

[cardoustie]

Reed x a million

he has been caught 3 times on video improving his lie ... what else does he do during a round?

[Onespeed24]

I agree with what most are saying here...

Phil was just goofing around out in the open with no intent to "cheat".

Reed fully intended to sneak an improved lie prior to his shot.

I guess I missed the Kuchar thing, did he do something recently to draw attention, or are we still talking about the caddie bonus thing in Mexico?

[grm24]

Shackelford: Matt Kuchar's latest act goes against spirit of the rules Matt Kuchar's bizarre ruling required two rules officials and instant replay

[ALIF]

LOL!

[Man_O_War]

not a mickelson fan by any stretch...but that's not even on the same level of offensive..he lost his nerve...with the USGA... ala John Daly at Pinehurst..

 

Reed though says he did not "feel" his club moving the sand twice...and did not see the miracle that happened before his lie improved.

 

come to think of it..you have a point. I will give both the benefit of the doubt. The man says he did not feel it.

 

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Phil wasnt trying to cheat. Thats the difference. Reed im not 100% he was but its sure looks bad. Is he that nuts?? A camera man right there? I will say though.. very fine fluffy sand might be a tad harder to detect.

[Vardon Grip]

How bout this: Reed was incentivized to draw attention to himself during an exhibition match so there would be a lead story going into the President’s cup. Golf taking a page out of the wraslin’ book

queue the mind blown memes.

[aenemated]

To be the man, you gotta beat the man! WOOOOO!

[Ferguson]

 

 

 

[lazyjc4]

I suppose "Worse" is in the eye of the beholder. Reed is a cheater, he's done it before and is still doing it. It, apparently, is what he does. If he were dealt with by the governing bodies, he'd have some motivation to stop. Phil's shenanigans at Shinnecock certainly weren't an attempt to cheat the game, he knowingly broke a rule, owned it, and accepted the penalty. His actions were meant to disrespect the USGA, however, and if he'd just said so, I think most people wouldn't have had a problem with it, ala John Daly at Pinehurst. It's Phil trying to walk it back with the "I'm using the rules to my advantage" baloney that some take offense to. Just like when he disrespected Tom Watson after the 2014 Ryder Cup, and tried to justify it with the "I love the Ryder Cup and Team USA so much that I had to speak out" line. So, is the cheater worse for the game, or the "smile in your face, stab you in the back" jerk?

[Vardon Grip]

You get it.

woooo!

[KRAMER1997]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2018/06/20/rory-mcilroy-laughed-off-phil-mickelsons-controversial-putt/718679002/ Why Jordan Spieth Wasn’t Bothered By Phil Mickelson’s U.S. Open Antics

 

 

 

I mean if you look at the reaction to both, most pros supported Phil while Reed is getting trashed.

[Vindog]

Not sure either is "worse" for the game.

 

Neither player nor action is going to get people to stop watching Tiger Woods golf. Neither player nor action is going to affect my play nor the desire to play nor the desire for anyone else to get out there and play. People said this about Daly. "He's bad for the game!!" In the end nobody cares and it has no effect. It's bad for Patrick Reed, and it's bad for Phil, but that's about it.

 

Just my opinion

[Rangeballz]

Agree with most here. Reed was cheating, pure and simple, tried to hide it, and got caught.

Phil, while his actions were juvenile, disrespectful, and extremely disapppointing, wasn't cheating and didn't try to hide anything.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Reed is a selfish cheat and hoped to get away with it.

Phil acted out frustration and openly accepted the penalty. He deprecated himself and made a well earned big FU statement to the USGA. That act, along with years of us open set up controversy, will result in permanent changes in the US Open for the better.

[mwcallison]

Every hole that these guys play with each other and on TV and every off-course event they attend, they build a reputation with their colleagues and within the sport. There's no team or uniform to hide behind or blur perception. You have to create your own fanbase and your own support network amongst your playing partners - people to come to your defense online and in the media and players to vouch for you when they discuss these things in the clubhouse. Then, the results speak for themselves. It's closer to real life than most other sports.

That is especially on display this week where guys like Justin Thomas and Cameron Smith are forced to approach their comments from a team/teammate standpoint. You can tell they feel uncomfortable with it.

In the NFL or NBA, teams circle the wagons when one of their players draw the ire of the rest of the league or an opposing team/fanbase. You don't get that luxury in golf - even during the few team events, it's really a psuedo-team of individuals.

Guys go to bat for Phil because they feel like he's earned it with them. Reed hasn't and never will.

[braincramp52]

Phil's act was a big middle finger towards the USGA. Reed cheated and then tried to deny it. No comparison.

[dlygrisse]

Phil signed his scorecard correctly. Reed tried to cheat.

[Onespeed24]

So I just read the two Kuchar articles up above. I guess I missed those tournaments.

Both situations were weird and unnecessary, but I wouldn't call either of those cheating. Trying too hard to get free relief? Sure...

If the rules official says you can sweep loose impediments away from your ball in a waste bunker, you sweep the loose impediments away from your ball. Its a rule, take advantage of it. This is the other end of the spectrum from the DJ Bunkergate issue from 2010, that whole waste area/bunker thing needs some rethinking. One guy can legally sweep the "loose impediments" away from his ball in one area, the other guy loses a major for inadvertently touching the "sand" even with no chance or intent to improve his lie. Silly.

The pitch mark thing was a stretch, and he was asking for a lot, but he didn't actually cheat. If an official had agreed and given him relief he'd be well within his rights to take relief. I'm not sure why he asked a second and third time, maybe he was stalling for some other reason?

My opinion, that's a rule that needs to be changed anyways. Landing in an old divot or pitch mark when otherwise in the playing area should be automatic relief. You should not be penalized or disadvantaged for hitting a fairway or a green, ever. If you can take relief from your own mark you most definitely should be given relief from someone else's poorly/un-repaired damage.

As far as PReed goes, there are a lot of PGA players who get virtually zero on-air time, and I'd be willing to bet they all do similar things throughout a round, we just don't hear about it as often, or ever. The bigger names get bigger scrutiny for a variety of reasons. It really all comes down to personal integrity to know and follow the rules, whether a camera is watching or not. He obviously has none.

Phil is just a goofball, but I don't think he disrespected anyone or anything, he was just over it and let it be known. I wasn't offended by his actions, don't really see why anyone else would be.

[imakaveli]

Phil cheated but you can add the frustration and the fact that he was out of contention. Reed blatanly cheated. Reed wins imho.

[Sixcat]

Most people will say Reed's situation was worse. Most will give Phil a hall-pass because he is likable and Reed isn't. I'm not sure I agree. Both were egregious and there is absolutely no place in the game for either!

[dpb5031]

In sport, cheating is generally defined as an act of dishonesty in order to gain an unfair advantage over the field. A cheater does so surreptitiously, trying to get away with the unfair act unbeknownst to his fellow competitors and/or any other observers. Violating a rule, by itself, is not necessarily cheating.

Phil did something stupid, either out of frustration and loss of composure, to make a point, or both He violated a rule but it certainly wasnt cheating. He had absolutely zero intent (or expectation) to conceal his actions.

P. Reed attempted to cheat and got caught. There's a huge difference.

[driveandputtmachine]

The two people with multiple accusations of cheating or trying to bend the rules to advantage I know of are Reed and Kuchar. Reed in college(numerous reports), then at the Hero, and his video trying to get relief and saying Speith would've gotten relief fiasco.

The only player with more shithousery (Stolen from a Euro PGA Tour player talking about Kuchar) is Kuchar. He had the caddy fiasco, "embedded" ball at Memorial, WGC match play no given putt blowup with Sergio, and the removing "loose impediments" around his ball on the Euro tour in a waste bunker.

Sure, Kuchar wasn't assessed any penalty shots on his items, nor did he try and "cheat" per se, but he did try and bend the rules, and then go against the spirit with the loose impediments. Hard to think anyone could have a worse year than Kuchar did with these incidents.

Phil said before Shinnecock that the USGA shouldn't be stupid like they were last time at Shinnecock with the greens, the USGA in a round about way said they learned their lesson and the course would be good. Then we get the fiasco of the greens again. Phil was making a point, he is a big name in golf and it was all over sports center, pga tour radio, golf channel, and just about every other sports media outlet that covers golf. He was basically trying to throw mud in the USGA eyes for mucking Shinnecock up again.

He succeeded, but also dumped some in his own eyes as well.

[RichieHunt]

I really thought Phil's was much worse. They were both bad. And while Reed violated the rules and he should have been penalized and his excuse was nonsense....I don't know what real advantage he got from moving that small amount of grains of sand. Yes, he broke the rules and if you believe he cheated on purpose...I'm not going to argue with you. But, I don't see that as an advantag.e What Phil did was so egregious that I lost a lot of respect for him on that day. Reed just made it worse by mocking the incident at the President's Cup.

 

 

 

RH

[bladehunter]

Care to elaborate on Phil opinion? I just fail to understand how it was egregious at all. It was akin to someone just raking putts for the last 3 holes because he’s just finished.as in no chance and I just don’t care anymore. I’ve done it. Most have. Most will say that disrespected the tournament. Yes. That was the point. To highlight the poor setup of a couple holes.

 

For setup argument. Think about royal Melbourne this past week. Firm fast and hard. Scores could be controlled on that setup without any tricks. Now think shinecock . It was across the line in spots. From hard to silly. That’s what Phil was showing. “ if this is going to be silly. I’ll just be silly too “. That’s not a bad thing. That’s a guy with a voice using it to speak for some who doesnt have that loud voice. Showing that the game or that event cannot be propped up with a fake measure of respect. It must be held up with real respect , and the people running the event have to earn that. It shouldn’t be given on the name of tradition alone. The USga has been living off of their past name for several years now. Time to earn that name again. Pebble was better. We shall see this year.

[Philomathesq]

Well, I think Reed gained the advantage of much better lie what allowed him to make much better contact, which I think is a tremendous advantage.

Do the relative standings of the players impact your decision-making? That is, Phil was out of the tournament at the time he violated the rules; he had no hope of winning. Reed, on the other hand, was in first place (or a stroke behind) at the time of his action and he had a real chance to win; in fact, had it not been for the penalty, he would have been tied for first and headed to a playoff. That fact, in my opinion, in and of itself, makes Reed's actions much worse. Phil didn't violate a rule in hopes that doing so would help him win, Reed did.

[dpb5031]

So in your view, Phil getting frustrated and behaving like a clown is WORSE than Reed trying to cheat to gain unfair advantage? I really dont get it...

Personally, I think Phil should've been DQd for conduct unbecoming or something along that ilk. Truth is though, he wasn't in contention anyway, and by his actions, was only hurting himself. He neither gained, nor attempted to gain advantage over the competition.

Reed improved his club's path to the ball by removing a substantial amount of sand directly on his line. It's not only a violation of the rules, but it seems highly unlikely he could've NOT been unaware of it. Beyond that, had he gotten away with it, as he was in contention, he likely would have made the playoff and possibly won the event...all by CHEATING his fellow competitors.

[puttingmatt]

I do not have any issues with these players,

after all, they were accessed penalty strokes,

although Phil's stunt, had more entertainment value ,

 

[RichieHunt]

They're both bad. Reed broke the rules but I don't see how he gained an advantage. If Reed had stated that he was in the heat of the moment and didn't realize what he was doing, apologized and made a point to take the penalty...I wouldn't think much of it and wouldn't think that he was purposely cheating. Although my main suspicion of Reed is how close he was getting his club to the sand. But I don't see it gaining him an advantage.

 

Mickelson's actions were embarrassing and his explanation afterward was just flaunting his disrespect for the rules in the fans' face. I'd like to believe that Phil really wasn't thinking afterward when he said all of that nonsense, but I would have appreciated him just DQ'ing himself. If that had happened, then I would have said that Phil was frustrated and he didn't mean it.

 

Either way, both were bad and Jay Monohan needs to really crack down on blatant rule breaking and breaking the spirit of the rules such as backstopping, etc.

 

 

 

RH