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Have there been any deep dives into how much game improvement irons help golfers?


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I watched this video about blades vs game improvement irons and it's pretty interesting. The blades ended up being ever so slightly more consistent if you look at the standard deviation. The video is flawed though, it doesn't take loft/distance into consideration, and he's probably a scratch or plus handicap. I found this article as well, which goes into exactly what I'm curious about. It wasn't conclusive, and some of the statements in the article make me not know what to think, like "distance data is sufficiently clouded by poor ball striking that we cannot rate this as confirmed" (Isn't that the point of the test?). I see a lot of posts about this kind of stuff, but not many actual tests, sorry if i missed anything while searching.

 

I'm currently playing jpx 850 forged irons and my 7 iron will occasionally go 185 yards, which is not a good thing. I'm wondering if I could cut those fliers out if I went to a cavity back style iron without a trampoline for a face. I notice I don't get the fliers with my 8 iron, which doesn't have the "speed pocket" style design (4-7 irons do). I find at the golf shops I hit titleist cb's pretty good, but that's on a mat. 

 

 

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There have been discussions on this topic.  Every single Jan-Mar since Al Gore invented the internet.  Each year the topic sees tremendous advancement and hopefully this year will add to that body of

Glad you brought this up. There is far too little discussion on the topic.

You should be more explicit in #5-SGI/GI clubs are point and shoot. All you have to do is wave the club somewhere in the vicinity of the ball and it goes pin high every single time.   And #9

It’s alot like asking if the internet has improved society.  And then counting up the score.  Eye opening I’d bet.  

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Define "deep dive."  Are we talking "a major golf source grabbing some rando off of the course, slapping him on a launch monitor, and handing him 3 sets of clubs to see which one is best?"  Or, are we talking something like an automatic swing machine with consistent, predictable, reproduceable data?


Or, are we talking that golf is based on the feel and the sensitivities of each user...what's good for you may not be the best for me.

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I played JPX850 Forged for 2 years, when i got fitted for my Apex Pros at the Callaway performance center i brought them as my comparison set. If i recall i hit like 25 6-irons in a row into a 10yd box. 

 

it's too bad that you got the trampoline version of these irons. Mine were much more consistent. 

 

If you are writing posts the way you are right now (faces are trampolines, huge fliers)....than just get blades because you know that's what you want to do... and any poor swing you make with a cavity / GI club will be the clubs fault. 

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Golf is a funny game. Confidence and belief in what you are doing is a big part of your scores.

Choose an iron that gives you confidence. It may not work the same for anybody else.

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I was talking to one of my club pros last fall about getting fitted into the p790s on during my last fitting (hardly a game improvement iron, but arguably). His issue had nothing to do with the iron itself other than he just hit it too far for what he needed. A 7 iron clearing 200 yards wasn’t useful for his game, so he didn’t want to use it. There’s a fun YouTube with Crossfield and Jamie Sadlowski (already a long hitter with a 225 5 iron at 100 feet), and he was hitting clean shots at 245 and almost 140 feet in the air. He clearly doesn’t need the help, but he can hit them very well.
 

If players were honest with themselves, they wouldn’t approach clubs along the lines of “will these clubs improve my game”? They should look at it the opposite way. Do I need smaller or less lofted clubs because game improvement clubs because these are going too far or too high with my swing and it’s messing with my gapping? Everyone (including pros) needs forgiveness at times, and there are examples of pros on tour with GI clubs. 

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11 hours ago, roarkerandall said:

I'm currently playing jpx 850 forged irons and my 7 iron will occasionally go 185 yards, which is not a good thing. I'm wondering if I could cut those fliers out if I went to a cavity back style iron without a trampoline for a face. I notice I don't get the fliers with my 8 iron, which doesn't have the "speed pocket" style design (4-7 irons do). I find at the golf shops I hit titleist cb's pretty good, but that's on a mat.

 

Sorry dude, I play these irons and they are just as consistent as YOU can be with them. They provide help, but not a ton.  If you're all over the face then yeah, you'll see a couple 'fliers' which are actually you hitting the center of the face and getting your full distance out of them.  Otherwise, you can easily get 10-15 yard drop offs.  The undercut cavity is primarily for removing mass to lower COG, no trampolines and 'speed' pockets, or fairway wood style construction.  These are constructed with consistency in mind.  Have you tried impact tape or foot spray to see where you're hitting the ball?  Another thing is the leading edge bevel is very forgiving on slightly heavy strikes.  Instead of digging and losing you 30 yards, it's more like 10-15.  If you hit one pure, it'll obviously go further than that.  If I recall, Stacy Lewis has done just fine with the JPX Forged line of irons.

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12 hours ago, roarkerandall said:

I watched this video about blades vs game improvement irons and it's pretty interesting. The blades ended up being ever so slightly more consistent if you look at the standard deviation. The video is flawed though, it doesn't take loft/distance into consideration, and he's probably a scratch or plus handicap. I found this article as well, which goes into exactly what I'm curious about. It wasn't conclusive, and some of the statements in the article make me not know what to think, like "distance data is sufficiently clouded by poor ball striking that we cannot rate this as confirmed" (Isn't that the point of the test?). I see a lot of posts about this kind of stuff, but not many actual tests, sorry if i missed anything while searching.

 

I'm currently playing jpx 850 forged irons and my 7 iron will occasionally go 185 yards, which is not a good thing. I'm wondering if I could cut those fliers out if I went to a cavity back style iron without a trampoline for a face. I notice I don't get the fliers with my 8 iron, which doesn't have the "speed pocket" style design (4-7 irons do). I find at the golf shops I hit titleist cb's pretty good, but that's on a mat. 

 

 

You must be new here, welcome... this subject has gone round and round here, many many threads and discussions on it.

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I'm all for gathering the data but IMHO it will take time and effort. I don't believe a fitting session typically is going to get you the real world info for your game. Hitting X shots in a row of any club, most decent golfers can adapt a bit and groove it (great sales technique: its better, buy it!). 

 

You (rarely :D) make two swings with the same club that is not a putter in your round, so you have to vary your shots. For me if I could play say 10 rounds on a course I know with set A, then play 10 rounds with set B I would hope I get enough shot variation and feel for how the clubs perform on strike/misses to see: is there a scoring difference but going deeper do I have better strokes gained, better stats, proximity to hole etc...

 

On second thought 10 rounds is light: I'd say 20 is a better number to really accumulate some meaningful data on irons vs. clubs you use all the time (driver, wedges, putter). Plus...more golf. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, bvanlieu said:

I'm all for gathering the data but IMHO it will take time and effort. I don't believe a fitting session typically is going to get you the real world info for your game. Hitting X shots in a row of any club, most decent golfers can adapt a bit and groove it (great sales technique: its better, buy it!). 

 

You (rarely :D) make two swings with the same club that is not a putter in your round, so you have to vary your shots. For me if I could play say 10 rounds on a course I know with set A, then play 10 rounds with set B I would hope I get enough shot variation and feel for how the clubs perform on strike/misses to see: is there a scoring difference but going deeper do I have better strokes gained, better stats, proximity to hole etc...

 

On second thought 10 rounds is light: I'd say 20 is a better number to really accumulate some meaningful data on irons vs. clubs you use all the time (driver, wedges, putter). Plus...more golf. 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more.  Once you have a general idea of what your specs are - from say one or two fittings - I'm not sure getting another fitting to select club A over club B will guarantee the best selection.  You really need to play these clubs a few rounds before you'll know for sure which one is best.  They can compare the stats from that session and they will certainly pick the best club for THAT session, but you could come back the next day and things could completely turn around unless your a low handicap player.

 

For the average player, if you've never been fit, then yes, get fit for a club that suits your swing.  After a season, you will probably know if you need a more forgiving club or a more challenging club.  

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35 minutes ago, jjfcpa said:

I couldn't agree more.  Once you have a general idea of what your specs are - from say one or two fittings - I'm not sure getting another fitting to select club A over club B will guarantee the best selection.

 

After a full fitting for irons or driver, you normally come down to two (or three) models that are pretty much equal "by the numbers."

 

From there, you go with the one that "looks and feels best" when you stand over the ball. Unless you have confidence in a club, it won't work for you.

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This is the mega question in golf equipment that evokes sarcasm and scorn in the different camps.  I have conducted my own deep dive that went beyond mechanics to such questions as the surprisingly large effect appearances/aesthetics have on motor functions and the neurobiology of why people play golf.

 

My conclusion is bifurcated.  For people who strike the ball properly at an adequate speed, game improvement clubs help, marginally.  For others, they are a mixed blessing.  They can give a good result with a bad swing, mostly by preventing topped shots (most people hit the ball too high because they hit the ground first) from radically de-lofting the club, but reduce incentive and possibly ability to learn a good swing.

 

It really is an ethical question:  what is good in golf?  Is it achievement in overcoming difficulty, or ego?

 

This might seem like a “de gustibus non est disputandum” thing, but isn’t, which is where the neurobiology comes in.  Look up “intermittent reinforcement.”

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24 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

This is the mega question in golf equipment that evokes sarcasm and scorn in the different camps.  I have conducted my own deep dive that went beyond mechanics to such questions as the surprisingly large effect appearances/aesthetics have on motor functions and the neurobiology of why people play golf.

 

My conclusion is bifurcated.  For people who strike the ball properly at an adequate speed, game improvement clubs help, marginally.  For others, they are a mixed blessing.  They can give a good result with a bad swing, mostly by preventing topped shots (most people hit the ball too high because they hit the ground first) from radically de-lofting the club, but reduce incentive and possibly ability to learn a good swing.

 

It really is an ethical question:  what is good in golf?  Is it achievement in overcoming difficulty, or ego?

 

This might seem like a “de gustibus non est disputandum” thing, but isn’t, which is where the neurobiology comes in.  Look up “intermittent reinforcement.”

I, too, know lots of fancy words. 
 

seriously, though... I think your conclusion is sound, but I’d love to see your data... 

 

One of the things I’ve been thinking a lot about in terms of golf is what does it mean to improve at golf, and how can you get a weekend warrior to successfully improve...

 

this forum is a great example of people who are passionate enough about golf to spend free time talking about equipment, but I wonder how many people here actually lower their handicaps... even the instruction forum seems a little problematic, I’m not convinced those threads are actually helping people get better... (no judgment, I spend lots of time here... it’s fun to talk golf equipment and theory... it’s another thing to actually take action towards improving)

 

The gi vs blades are an interesting case of helping now, vs helping long term...

 

personally, I play adams cmbs. I think they reward my best swings, don’t kill me on bad swings and rarely create things like flyers where my outcome is outside my expected dispersion. 

 

If you are looking for irons you will grow into, pick some blades and go nuts... if you want something to work right now, once you find a look and feel you like, dispersion is the only thing that matters. The tightest, most consistent grouping is going to be the best fit... if distance irons occasionally fly an extra 15 yards or blades occasionally go 10 yards short, you need to account for that in your decision. 
 

ultimately, I think both the hardest and best thing about golf is there aren’t any right answers... no one else can tell me exactly what I need to do... I can look at others success and strategies, and find good coaches to help me along my journey... but my path is whichever one I choose, and my result is no ones fault but my own... 

 

Generically, I’d say blades are a bad idea simply because I don’t think many people are willing or capable to put in the time and energy to get to their peak performance level with them... but I also believe my cmbs are basically the peak of golf achievement... enough help to rescue me on mediocre swings while demanding enough to require me to make consistent swings for them to perform how I want them to.

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44 minutes ago, farmer said:

OT, but Adams made some really good clubs.  Shame that they couldn't make it.

I mean, they didn’t fail... Taylor made paid them 70 million dollars to avoid a patent dispute... barney is doing just fine.

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This is entirely anecdotal and specific to me, but I’m a 1-3 handicap depending on how often I play. I’ve never played GI irons per se, but I do play Apex Pro, which are cavity backs and fairly forgiving.
 

Last year, for fun, I bought an old set of MP-33 just to try something new. While they’re great when you’re on, I’ll never forget a couple rounds when I just didn’t have my A game (more like my C game) while playing with the MP-33 set. Off-center shots ended up 20 yards short and would literally hurt my forearms. The game was considerably harder and I guarantee those same shots would have been much better with my Apex Pros, probably a couple yards short with a manageable chip.
 

My takeaway is, and this isn’t surprising:

 

1) Blades require a much more quality strike than GI

2) Most people, even low handicappers, are not good enough to strike a blade well enough on a consistent basis to get the best performance from a blade 

3) More forgiveness is generally a good thing. Yes, you may get some level of inconsistency (e.g., a flyer), but how often is that happening? I’d bet it’s less than the times a poor strike would cost you with a blade 

 

Not saying you should play a shovel, but most people, even good players, need the forgiveness a cavity back will providE

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3 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

This is entirely anecdotal and specific to me, but I’m a 1-3 handicap depending on how often I play. I’ve never played GI irons per se, but I do play Apex Pro, which are cavity backs and fairly forgiving.
 

Last year, for fun, I bought an old set of MP-33 just to try something new. While they’re great when you’re on, I’ll never forget a couple rounds when I just didn’t have my A game (more like my C game) while playing with the MP-33 set. Off-center shots ended up 20 yards short and would literally hurt my forearms. The game was considerably harder and I guarantee those same shots would have been much better with my Apex Pros, probably a couple yards short with a manageable chip.
 

My takeaway is, and this isn’t surprising:

 

1) Blades require a much more quality strike than GI

2) Most people, even low handicappers, are not good enough to strike a blade well enough on a consistent basis to get the best performance from a blade 

3) More forgiveness is generally a good thing. Yes, you may get some level of inconsistency (e.g., a flyer), but how often is that happening? I’d bet it’s less than the times a poor strike would cost you with a blade 

 

Not saying you should play a shovel, but most people, even good players, need the forgiveness a cavity back will providE

Interesting. I did exactly the same thing. I played (still play) R7TP irons which are sort of a tweener between a players cavity back and a GI club. I was curious about blades so I bought an old, cheap combo set of Mizuno MP 30/33 irons just to see what all the fuss was about. Played the MP30 4 & 5 irons and 6-PW MP 33. Surprisingly the blades weren't these 'hard to hit/impossible to play' nightmares they'd been built up to be. I really enjoyed playing them and found them little different scoring wise to my CB irons. A good strike is good strike and a poor strike is a poor strike regardless of the club in your hand. I didn't feel like I was penalised by 20 yards on poor strikes like you did. Having said all that I still felt more comfortable and more confident looking down at the bigger, friendlier GI iron and only really played the MP 33 blades in casual, friendly rounds. On club days I still played the R7 TP. 

 

For what it's worth I'm a mid handicapper playing from say 11-14 handicap so maybe I can play poorly with any club and it makes no difference to my scores whereas a 1-3 handicap might notice the lost shots more. LOL 

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game improvement irons = designed to compensate the swing errors to minimize the mal results. hence more 'forgiving'. yes they might be helping the ball up in the air straighter & higher, but ultimately their wouldn't be any 'improvement' in the long run, as they don't practically help swings 'improve'.

 

however, not every golfer is willing to follow the agony road of getting pressure of 'better swing', i reckon. if just a wknd golfer for 'fun' on the course then "the easier, the better" right? 

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22 hours ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

Define "deep dive."  Are we talking "a major golf source grabbing some rando off of the course, slapping him on a launch monitor, and handing him 3 sets of clubs to see which one is best?"  Or, are we talking something like an automatic swing machine with consistent, predictable, reproduceable data?


Or, are we talking that golf is based on the feel and the sensitivities of each user...what's good for you may not be the best for me.

That last paragraph summed it up in a nutshell for me--- You know I gotta be bored this morning reading on this subject much less commenting

 

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1 hour ago, Sean2 said:

I always thought forgiveness was a bit overrated. Regardless of what kind of club you play, you still have to put a good swing on it to get positive results. 

I think it’s different for different players... i think the sole plays a bigger role than people realize (it was certainly an eye opening part of my ball striking for me)

 

Different people miss differently... there is a reason a variety of irons are played on tour. 
 

There isn’t a specific answer for everyone on the iron front... people need to take the time to understand what they are looking for out of irons and then actually find what works... it’s not as simple as I’m a 5, I can play these... 

 

I think the best thing you can do is get on a launch monitor and look at your dispersion.

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13 Degree Adams Speedline with Aldila Alpha 

18 Degree Adams A12 with Proforce V2

4 Utility Sub70 699u 22 degree Proforce V2

5 iron Sub70 639 CB with S400

6-GW Adams CMB with Project X 6.0

54, 58 Vokeys

SeeMore milled Tri-Mallet fit and built at SeeMore 

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