Retail Scotty vs Circle T

[Hougz79]

At the risk of losing my WRX card, I want to hear people's reasons why I keep reading about "Scotty hasn't released a good retail putter since (insert putter)".  Full disclosure I have never putted with a Circle T.  I've owned about 5 SCs over the years ranging from Pro Platinum to Special Select.  I've gamed a few Odysseys over the years, and currently very pleased with a Spider X.  I've rolled some EVNROL, Bettinardi, and Ping milled putters.  I dunno, none seemed "better" than an SC.  Just wondering why all the hate for retail Scotty's?  What makes the Circle T so much better?  Is the hate due to the fact SCs were the first "expensive" retail putter?  I know the "insert" Selects were loathed, but I get that....the "vibration dampening membrane" was masking tape...lol.  

[A.Princey]

A lot of it’s the fact he will never release the shapes and “custom” options of the circle T line to OTR. People really like the 009 shape and the alignment options of a tour stick. 
 

The current line is pretty nice IMO, just wish he would make naked/sight dot options. The cavity design of the special select is a little busy, but it’s miles better than inserts.  The other thing people get butthurt over is the sole weights, but it’s so much cheaper in production cost vs varied head sizes. To each their own. He’s trending back in the right direction, let’s hope it keeps getting better. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by A.Princey

[jwhite86]

The new Selects are really nice... like the above poster mentioned... the previous line with the inserts were not well received... 

 

I think people miss the days of Carbon putters available at retail... but that's not happening... and some people would love to see a naked putter come to retail (but then there would be people complaining about having to send it in somewhere to get a dot or a top line)

[Abh159]

41 minutes ago, Hougz79 said:

At the risk of losing my WRX card, I want to hear people's reasons why I keep reading about "Scotty hasn't released a good retail putter since (insert putter)".  Full disclosure I have never putted with a Circle T.  I've owned about 5 SCs over the years ranging from Pro Platinum to Special Select.  I've gamed a few Odysseys over the years, and currently very pleased with a Spider X.  I've rolled some EVNROL, Bettinardi, and Ping milled putters.  I dunno, none seemed "better" than an SC.  Just wondering why all the hate for retail Scotty's?  What makes the Circle T so much better?  Is the hate due to the fact SCs were the first "expensive" retail putter?  I know the "insert" Selects were loathed, but I get that....the "vibration dampening membrane" was masking tape...lol.  

 

I think this mostly stems from someone just having a favorite and thinking nothing compares to it. Even though he's released some great putters over the years, I don't think anything that has come out compares to my Santa Fe TeI3 from 2001. So I might be one of the people saying that he hasn't released a good one since '01 because nothing I've tried compares to it (even though plenty since then have still be great).

 

Overall I think the main "hatred" for SC is because people like to hate on whatever is #1 at the time (like SC was for many, many years). Plenty of people hate Alabama football and hated the Patriots for no other reason than they kept winning. The general public (especially in America) loves an underdog story so it's easy to dislike the favorite for no real reason. 

[the bishop]

6 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

I think this mostly stems from someone just having a favorite and thinking nothing compares to it. Even though he's released some great putters over the years, I don't think anything that has come out compares to my Santa Fe TeI3 from 2001. So I might be one of the people saying that he hasn't released a good one since '01 because nothing I've tried compares to it (even though plenty since then have still be great).

 

Overall I think the main "hatred" for SC is because people like to hate on whatever is #1 at the time (like SC was for many, many years). Plenty of people hate Alabama football and hated the Patriots for no other reason than they kept winning. The general public (especially in America) loves an underdog story so it's easy to dislike the favorite for no real reason. 

I think some of it is that he's not very original and most of his designs are derivative of others innovations.  Whether those be Anser style putters, #7 styles or Spyder styles.  He doesn't do a lot of innovating on his own IMO.  I know others make copies of everybody elses stuff, but what has he originated in the last 20 years that other putter makers have copied?  However many are very well made and quite nice.  I've owned a few over the years and always liked them.  Still have a Pro-Platinum Newport.

[Abh159]

5 minutes ago, the bishop said:

I think some of it is that he's not very original and most of his designs are derivative of others innovations.  Whether those be Anser style putters, #7 styles or Spyder styles.  He doesn't do a lot of innovating on his own IMO.  I know others make copies of everybody elses stuff, but what has he originated in the last 20 years that other putter makers have copied?  However many are very well made and quite nice.  I've owned a few over the years and always liked them.  Still have a Pro-Platinum Newport.

 

Yeah I get that and don't necessarily disagree that his stuff is basically his own versions of other putters. However, the other side of that argument is that if we're just thinking about the Answer style then Karsten Solheim would be the only true "innovator". 

 

You could probably make an argument that the original Futura (as ugly as it was) was pretty innovative. Even though a lot of modern day putters don't have that same style now, SC was one of the first major manufactures to put a shaft on a spaceship and call it a putter 🤣.

[shoot4par]

Some people talk about the different steels used. Surgical stainless v. German stainless v. whatever is in the retail models. I've never used either of the first two so I can't comment about the difference in feel. Milling patterns and shapes are different in the retail lines v. an 009 or something from the tour side. There's such a cult following with regards to the circle t stuff, its tough for me to offer much more insight that hasn't already been put forth. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by shoot4par

[the bishop]

19 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Yeah I get that and don't necessarily disagree that his stuff is basically his own versions of other putters. However, the other side of that argument is that if we're just thinking about the Answer style then Karsten Solheim would be the only true "innovator". 

 

You could probably make an argument that the original Futura (as ugly as it was) was pretty innovative. Even though a lot of modern day putters don't have that same style now, SC was one of the first major manufactures to put a shaft on a spaceship and call it a putter 🤣.

Fair point on the Futura and in some ways it forshadowed what we see in the Spyder in that it was fairly high MOI for its day, but the shape didn't catch on.  Not all innovations do.  PING Doc putters anyone? 🤣  Actually Golfsmith did try to cash in on the Futura craze back then with their Starship Enterprise looking putter.  Didn't catch on thankfully.

[MPAndreassi]

The 2020 line is very good, as others have said. As far as the copying of other designs I can’t get on board with it. People complain about it, but they don’t give everyone else the hard time about it. Everyone makes something that looks like something else. My EVNROLL ER5 is the almost identical to an Odyssey #7 but they don’t get the backlash. I think that the main issue with the Scotty stuff is for a long time he was charging exorbitantly more than everyone else for similar designs, but at today’s prices most putters are in the same ballpark with Scotty prices. The thing about the Circle T’s is just the same as anything exclusive, or limited. People want something that other people don’t have, and for 4-6x the price I don’t think a few unique stamps or a different alignment aid are worth it. There’s so many good boutique shops out there where you can get something completely to your specs and liking without the brand name attached. 

[philly2kuk]

I agree with @MPAndreassi when it comes to Scotty getting grief. Odyssey copied the Taylormade spider by hiring the original designer, yet they don’t seem to get any backlash on it. Pings i200 irons look very reminiscent of the Taylormade RAC Lt first gen irons from the early 2000s.

Edited April 5, 2021 by philly2kuk

[nitram]

My first Cameron putter was a '97 Santa Fe Tei3 I won as a door prize at a tournament. I actually won a Newport but my playing partner won the Santa Fe and he had to have the Newport so we traded. I never knew I was a flow neck guy until then and really glad I made the trade. I gamed it for a solid ten years. Nothing I'd ever putted with felt and sounded as good as this and not quite sure anything has since then.

 

I was able to procure a few more different styles from Napa's to Newports, MyGirls, etc. over the next decade mainly through trading and winning a couple. I was even lucky enough to come up with an oilcan 009 Newport (think Jordan Spieth's) bound for Japan through a chance meeting at a golf tournament with one of the "chosen few" collectors. I'd seen a few of the GSS models and even rolled a couple but honestly think if it hadn't been for Tiger rocking one on those days it wasn't any more special than a Pro Platinum Newport or Mil-Spec. It definitely wasn't worth $1500 USD's. If I remember right it cost me a lime green Hula putter cover and a new set of Mizuno MP-14's. I was able to win the Hula cover back on a bet on the putting green before the tournament started. LOL I rolled the Newport a few times and stashed it away for future trading purposes and continued rolling my Santa Fe. Nothing against the 009 but it wasn't the right neck for me and I didn't really want to send it back to the shop for a neck replacement. Besides, it didn't roll any better  nor feel as good as my Santa Fe.

 

It was around this time we'd endured the Futura and it's spin-offs and now were a year or two into the Detour line of things and I began to question the direction SC was headed. I also was able to procure the flow neck 009 I bag to this day (the story is around here somewhere). And so I plodded along for a few years buying and selling a few as nothing really blew my socks off. The Red X were pretty good, the Selects were okay and the rest really didn't even interest me, even the Limited Releases. In 2011 I bought my wife a LH Tiffany Newport GSS for our anniversary that she still games to this day.

 

In the past five years I have to say I'm not all that impressed with the SC offerings. The GOLO seemed targeted at the Detour audience since they were due for an upgrade and he had to re-introduce the Teryllium Newport style heads to seemingly whet golfers appetite as it seems as if the Select line had grown old and stale. In these same past five years I've rolled an exact duplicate of JT's Phantom X 5.5 and it felt really good but not as good as the Bettinardi MiNoVaI I selected instead.

 

So in answer to your original question, IMHO, Scotty's "stock" productions have not mirrored his pricing increases over the past decade. What were originally some of the best feeling putters straight from the shelf now seem cloned and gimmicky. It's almost like you have to buy the introductory model to be in the cool kids club and then have to buy something with a  "Circle T" to have the feel of what he once was. I swear I'm not throwing stones at whomever enjoys a modern Cameron putter. If you really like it and can roll your rock with it then good on you. I'm just saying they don't seem to have the feel and "soul" they once had.

 

 

 

 

[Champ2430]

I’ve had about 6 circle t’s now and I only have 1 left. I’ve never really thought they were that great. What baffles me is an example of how they sold the T22 Fastback at a limited release and can still be had for under $1000. Yet, they release the same version in the gallery for $3000. There’s no difference in the shape or the face etc. Why you would be $2000 more for the same putter because it has a stamp is something I’ll never understand. 

[Golfdoctor]

My NP 2 T22 is at the custom shop right now and one of the things I'm having done is to go with a raw flange line. I know that there will still be a groove, but I plan on using that to help line up with the ball. I plan on posting some pic's when it gets back.

[luke1333]

10 hours ago, A.Princey said:

A lot of it’s the fact he will never release the shapes and “custom” options of the circle T line to OTR. People really like the 009 shape and the alignment options of a tour stick. 
 

The current line is pretty nice IMO, just wish he would make naked/sight dot options. The cavity design of the special select is a little busy, but it’s miles better than inserts.  The other thing people get butthurt over is the sole weights, but it’s so much cheaper in production cost vs varied head sizes. To each their own. He’s trending back in the right direction, let’s hope it keeps getting better. 

I agree with this. Naked current newport 2 I would come back and give Scotty another shot but not until then! Much better options and more customization out there for less money! 

[hypergolf]

I heard this from a local touring pro so there is credibility to this.

 

1. Retail SC are first of all not milled in the USA.

2. The raw material used for retail vs Circle T are completely different. Meaning they are not the same product.

 

 

 

[A.Princey]

I also think minimal branding and less red dots all over would help. One ‘Titleist’ script in cavity like the AOP would be nice. Also, that super thin, very low profile face milling from the Studio Stainless era would be perfect. While we’re at it, maybe take the shapes back to the AOP era, milling finish pizazz on the shoulders can stay, but shoulder/bumper size & shape was better in the late 90’s IMO.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Red Dots is a valid comment! I have an old carbon steel pro plat newport.To many folk,these are The Classic. i have bought 4 variations and agree. For 350 to 900 you can buy a new variation of this by some great people.Many manufacturers get lost and come back too their rootes...69 mustang.....so the Carbon Steel milled in USA Newport 111 may come back, but at $1000...at a real 340 grams ,so then you say is it worth it...if you keep it Ten years,YES.

The new trend of heavy weights because there is less raw material on the core head is just more cost cutting......

[mjbfyb]

1 hour ago, RogerinNewZealand said:

The new trend of heavy weights because there is less raw material on the core head is just more cost cutting......

Yep, Titleist’s profits are soaring because they get to recycle an extra 40 grams of steel from every block used to mill a putter. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by mjbfyb

[j.a.]

Scotty has made heaps of money with the marketing term GSS used in circle t putters. I say marketing because GSS is a trademark of Acushnet, parent company of Titleist and SC. GSS is understood to be German Stainless Steel, an unicorn material used in most expensive SC tour putters and of course, Tiger’s putter. 
 

 

[JoeFrigo]

I haven't owned a Circle T so I cant directly compare to the Newport's , 2019 phantom x5 and the current 2021 phantom x5.5 I just got

 

but I have owned stock Bettinardi's and Tour Betti's. stock Swag putters, limited edition Swag, and 2 tour prototype Swag putters..... I won't claim to be right but IMO Tour putters are just more attention to detail with cool designs, stamping, tweaks in head shape, and probably tighter tolerances. Off the face I honestly didnt notice any differences. If you handed me any of those putters without seeing them, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if they were all milled faces

 

what I dont get is why stock drivers are $500 and tour issue are around $800, but what makes a stock putter $400 but Tour putter $2000 and up?? Minimum $3000 for Circle T's

 

im not knocking it by any means. If you can afford a circle t, then get it. When I had my Betti and Swag tour putters it was a nostalgic feeling for me. But after that wore off in 2 months and realizing I paid for a stamp I quickly sold them all

[Carson33]

10 hours ago, hypergolf said:

I heard this from a local touring pro so there is credibility to this.

 

1. Retail SC are first of all not milled in the USA.

2. The raw material used for retail vs Circle T are completely different. Meaning they are not the same product.

 

 

 

Regarding your first point, I heard something similar. I was told that the heads for the current select line are not 100% milled heads. They are cast overseas and then they only mill the face in the USA.  Hence, You will never notice that they say "milled from one solid piece" or "100% milled in the USA".  

 

Does anyone else have some insight on this?

[dropkicked]

This is directly from scotty's site for the special select line..

"a solid milled putter head for amazing feel"

[luke1333]

14 hours ago, hypergolf said:

I heard this from a local touring pro so there is credibility to this.

 

1. Retail SC are first of all not milled in the USA.

2. The raw material used for retail vs Circle T are completely different. Meaning they are not the same product.

 

 

 

So basically Scotty is lying on the back of all their putters?

[MattM97]

20 minutes ago, luke1333 said:

So basically Scotty is lying on the back of all their putters?

 

Scotty lying about stuff? No, never 😂

 

Edit: I know the new ones are milled in the USA, it was a big point of focus by Scotty on this release. Just talking past Scotty. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by MattM97

[dropkicked]

15 hours ago, hypergolf said:

I heard this from a local touring pro so there is credibility to this.

 

1. Retail SC are first of all not milled in the USA.

2. The raw material used for retail vs Circle T are completely different. Meaning they are not the same product.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Carson33 said:

Regarding your first point, I heard something similar. I was told that the heads for the current select line are not 100% milled heads. They are cast overseas and then they only mill the face in the USA.  Hence, You will never notice that they say "milled from one solid piece" or "100% milled in the USA".  

 

Does anyone else have some insight on this?

 

So the below is directly from Scotty's site regarding the Special Select line....

 

 

 

[luke1333]

15 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

 

Scotty lying about stuff? No, never 😂

 

Edit: I know the new ones are milled in the USA, it was a big point of focus by Scotty on this release. Just talking past Scotty. 

Haha I know but I don't believe his newest line was milled in the USA either personally. I do think he lied on every single one

[PixlPutterman]

I got everything I could ever need from a tour head shape with no site markers...........carbon as well.

 

I haven't much cared for a Scotty ever since he started up with the inserts....

 

 

 

[chicolax2]

Mallet question regarding the CT vs regular?  What are the differences?  Are the CT mallets using a different material?  Seems from the layman over here that is similar to a tour driver head vs a non tour driver head, in the fact that tour heads are just confirmed at tighter tolerances.  If that is the case then the CT mallets at multiple K's crazy.

[Aviador Naval]

Slightly off topic but spurred by discussion above...

 

A couple posters have mentioned the feel of the older stuff, some have lamented milling/inserts, and one mentioned folks longing for the days of the retail carbon putter.

 

We’re the early CT and gallery putters made from carbon?  We’re they lighter?  Did they have smooth faces or light milling?  Of the three most recognizable truly individual Cameron putters - Tiger, Spieth, Faxon - two appear to be carbon, all have light or no milling, and at least two are 325 grams or less.

 

Why the move to Stainless?  I understand cashing in on a marketing term (I.e., GSS) from a business point view - especially since it could be tied to Tiger’s putter.  But what drove the move to stainless to begin with?  Is it cheaper when bought in bulk, easier to mill, fewer steps to finish, simply requires less maintenance to look good on rack and remain looking good in bag..?

 

I’m currently using a 54 year old ~315 gram MnBn Ping with a smooth face that feels substantially better than any other putter I’ve ever used including a handful of OTR Camerons and Bettis and a carbon Morgan DH89.  I’ve started to wonder if the trend toward heavier putters, milling, and inserts is less about any performance type enhancement as is commonly marketed and more about making the feel/sound of stainless steel simply tolerable.

[MattM97]

50 minutes ago, Aviador Naval said:

Slightly off topic but spurred by discussion above...

 

A couple posters have mentioned the feel of the older stuff, some have lamented milling/inserts, and one mentioned folks longing for the days of the retail carbon putter.

 

We’re the early CT and gallery putters made from carbon?  We’re they lighter?  Did they have smooth faces or light milling?  Of the three most recognizable truly individual Cameron putters - Tiger, Spieth, Faxon - two appear to be carbon, all have light or no milling, and at least two are 325 grams or less.

 

Why the move to Stainless?  I understand cashing in on a marketing term (I.e., GSS) from a business point view - especially since it could be tied to Tiger’s putter.  But what drove the move to stainless to begin with?  Is it cheaper when bought in bulk, easier to mill, fewer steps to finish, simply requires less maintenance to look good on rack and remain looking good in bag..?

 

I’m currently using a 54 year old ~315 gram MnBn Ping with a smooth face that feels substantially better than any other putter I’ve ever used including a handful of OTR Camerons and Bettis and a carbon Morgan DH89.  I’ve started to wonder if the trend toward heavier putters, milling, and inserts is less about any performance type enhancement as is commonly marketed and more about making the feel/sound of stainless steel simply tolerable.

 

 

The stainless move was for the lack of maintenance. How many golfers not on here would know that they need to oil their putter or not to leave it in their car or to take off the head cover when not in use? Not a lot. A lot of people would have their Scotty's rust like crazy because of this and Stainless is just easier for the masses. I like carbon but I know what needs to be done to keep from rusting heavily.