LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[khalespace]

33 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

With the defeat in court and now all the questions regarding LIV and their contracts, etc. 

 

I wonder if their chances of getting a TV deal have now diminished. 

If LIV broadcast is given away for almost free, I bet some networks like MTV, History Chanel will pick it up.

[khalespace]

1 hour ago, iutodd said:

I think the point is that...after four years what will Cam Smith have?  He'll have lots of money for sure.  What will his career be by then?  Will he have any OWGR standing?  Will he be playing in the majors?  Will he just re-sign up with LIV?

 

I know projecting forward is hard but these guys are giving up the certainty of the PGA Tour as a career in order to get more money right now.

 

Cam Smith just earned $10 mil in 16 weeks of playing.  He got $3 mil for finishing second in the Comcast Top 10.  He's in line to get multiple millions of dollars at East Lake and has two tournaments the next two weeks with a combined $30 mil in purses.

 

Cam is exempt on tour through 2027.  Look at the purses he'll be playing for and the quality of tournaments Cam Smith will be in next year.  His schedule could basically look like this for the next four years:

 

CJ Cup: $10.5 mil

Sentry: $15 mil*

Farmers: $8.7 mil

Waste Management: $8.5 mil

Genesis: $20 mil

API: $20 mil

Players: $25 mil

WGC Dell Match Play: $20 mil*

Masters: $15 mil

Wells Fargo: $9.3 mil

PGA: $15 mil

Memorial: $20 mil

US Open: $17.5 mil

Scottish: $8 mil

British: $14 mil

 

Playoffs:

Fed EX St. Jude: $20 mil

BMW: $20 mil*

East Lake: $ millions of bonus money*

 

Three big money no cut events in fall of 2023.  BTW that's six or seven guaranteed paydays if he's a top 30/50 guy.

 

And because Cam won the British he's got a 5 year exemption into all the majors.  Maybe he thinks he'll keep that anyways...but maybe not...

 

Like guaranteed money is nice...but Cam Smith can set his schedule however he wants on the PGA Tour next year and in the years ahead. He will be in the biggest events with all kinds of guaranteed money just sitting there for him.  He'll be on TV and have guaranteed sponsorship money.

I will be rooting against Cam Smith while watching the FEDEX cup.

[Rob G 89]

3 hours ago, Gregakin said:

I enjoy watching Cam play, but if you've noticed he has many interests outside of golf.  Cam is a great putter and admitted to putting extra effort this last year to get better.  Hard work, works; but will be lost just as quick. 

 

IMO the LIV structure encourages pro's to not put in the time/effort necessary of a world class player.  Sure, they will give it 100% during the 3-days, but will they put in the many hours of preparation to stay on top - I say no, not a chance.  Point being, 12 months from joining LIV Cam will not be a top player in the world.  He may get chubby again. Too many players, with extraordinary talent, are digging it out of the dirt daily for being #1. Maybe LIV keeps buying the highs and shorting the lows to stay relevant...who knows?

 

For everything that is LIV/Golf but Louder - insane money, shortened work effort, less competition, team compensation - LIV is the SUNSET tour regardless of age or talent. It's just human nature. 

 

Who knows maybe they go full Bryson hit the weight room and speed training  And come back better than ever. They have nothing to lose so why not take some risks.

[physasst]

27 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Everyone keeps talking about strength of field but what have we seen from the last 5 PGA events? None of the top players have been teeing it up. Most top players barely play 2/3 of the season as it is. Most of this season's leader boards have been the who's who of.........who?

Yeah, and OWGR points are lower for those events because of that, but at least its competitive golf, not exhibition golf, which by the testimony yesterday, LIV clearly is. I mean, I thought it was pretty freakin cool that a 20 y/o kid who wasn't even a PGA tour member, won this last weekend and played his way onto the tour. That's awesome. That variability is what I love...Watching the same 2-3 guys win every week is boring. Which is why I didn't watch a lot during the height of the Tiger era.

 

I want to see guys hungry. Guys giving everything to chase that dream and climb that mountain. Not a bunch of has-beens petulantly whining about that they "deserve" so much money. To them I say...F Off.....no one deserves anything...NO ONE. 

 

When I was in the Navy, I was a SARC and while not with the SEALS, knew a bunch of them. They had a saying/mantra that I think is apropos to life in general. "The only easy day was yesterday". That's life. 

 

M

[Krt22]

8 minutes ago, Rob G 89 said:

Who knows maybe they go full Bryson hit the weight room and speed training  And come back better than ever. They have nothing to lose so why not take some risks.

They also have nothing to gain, so why bother taking such a risk?  That is like cutting the cords on your golden parachute.

 

 

[the bishop]

10 minutes ago, Rob G 89 said:

Who knows maybe they go full Bryson hit the weight room and speed training  And come back better than ever. They have nothing to lose so why not take some risks.

I mean, that's not a bad point.  Even though I find BAD rather annoying I always admired the choice he made to get bigger and faster because the extremes he went to - you acknowledged the risks - not only is there no guarantee of success there's a substantial risk of ruining your game.  What I think is debatable is how much it helped him in the end.  He was already a successful tour player before going that route and he did continue to win after making his changes but I don't really think it changed wins per start percentage much if at all.  And he seems a little more injury prone now.

 

But some guys like Koepka, well he'd never go that route.  He seems to be almost perpetually injured anymore and to me anyway helps expain his move to LIV.  Some guys just seem to be made of glass.  J. Day same way.

[doctorbloor]

44 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

The majority of the professional players do not have the option to "sign for liv".  You have to be courted, bought by GN.  At this point if you're not a big name or someone red hot, (like Cam) top 50-60 OGWR, you're not getting in.

 

 

It's almost like they don't understand that Indpendent Contractors have a consitutional, God-given right to play whereever they choose.

[idrive]

22 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

There's some aspects of LIV that people can call despicable, which we shouldn't discuss anymore per the rules, but at first weren't they just trying to be a compliment to the tour, so that we don't have to be bored by the Rocket Mortgage classic?

 

While I'm sure there are plenty that thought the RMC was boring I'd suggest that there were many of us that didn't think so.

 

I rather enjoyed it for the many reasons that have already been mentioned and perhaps a few more. I have a feeling I'll be looking back in a few years and remembering when "Tom" won his first PGAT tournament...

 

I would also suggest GN had/has no intention of (just) being a complement to the PGAT.

 

None.

[airjammer]

3 hours ago, Gregakin said:

I enjoy watching Cam play, but if you've noticed he has many interests outside of golf.  Cam is a great putter and admitted to putting extra effort this last year to get better.  Hard work, works; but will be lost just as quick. 

 

IMO the LIV structure encourages pro's to not put in the time/effort necessary of a world class player.  Sure, they will give it 100% during the 3-days, but will they put in the many hours of preparation to stay on top - I say no, not a chance.  Point being, 12 months from joining LIV Cam will not be a top player in the world.  He may get chubby again. Too many players, with extraordinary talent, are digging it out of the dirt daily for being #1. Maybe LIV keeps buying the highs and shorting the lows to stay relevant...who knows?

 

For everything that is LIV/Golf but Louder - insane money, shortened work effort, less competition, team compensation - LIV is the SUNSET tour regardless of age or talent. It's just human nature. 

 

Exactly, there is a reason people are saying that the agents are driving the players to sign with Liv. I’m sure they all

are well aware of their players ambitions, goals, and work ethic. 
 

Anyone that has taken a personal finance class understands the power of the time value of money.  Any agent  would be incompetent not to tell them to take the money now

regardless of future potential earnings

unless the players main goal is legacy. 

[jordan2240]

3 hours ago, Gregakin said:

IMO the LIV structure encourages pro's to not put in the time/effort necessary of a world class player.

That's my thought as well.  I was wondering if liv contracts stipulate the player must maintain a certain level of play.  On the surface, it would seem that practicing and working out wouldn't be necessary.

[Christosterone]

13 minutes ago, physasst said:

Yeah, and OWGR points are lower for those events because of that, but at least its competitive golf, not exhibition golf, which by the testimony yesterday, LIV clearly is. I mean, I thought it was pretty freakin cool that a 20 y/o kid who wasn't even a PGA tour member, won this last weekend and played his way onto the tour. That's awesome. That variability is what I love...Watching the same 2-3 guys win every week is boring. Which is why I didn't watch a lot during the height of the Tiger era.

 

I want to see guys hungry. Guys giving everything to chase that dream and climb that mountain. Not a bunch of has-beens petulantly whining about that they "deserve" so much money. To them I say...F Off.....no one deserves anything...NO ONE. 

 

When I was in the Navy, I was a SARC and while not with the SEALS, knew a bunch of them. They had a saying/mantra that I think is apropos to life in general. "The only easy day was yesterday". That's life. 

 

M

You didn’t watch golf during the tiger era because you want to “see guys hungry?”
 

Tiger was the most hungry, winning-obsessed golfer to ever play with only Jack and Lord Byron in the same conversation related to hunger for winning every single time they teed it up.

 

-chris 

 

 

-chris

[bscinstnct]

28 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I'm sure Cam (assuming he goes) would still love to play in all of the majors , and WGC's assuming they recognize LIV as world tour etc...

 

Since none of those conflict , i don't think, i don't believe LIV is telling him he cannot. It's the PGA tour (currently under investigation for Antitrust) and USGA , R&A etc telling him he (maybe) can't.

 

There's some aspects of LIV that people can call despicable, which we shouldn't discuss anymore per the rules, but at first weren't they just trying to be a compliment to the tour, so that we don't have to be bored by the Rocket Mortgage classic?

 

The reasons that some of the best liv players have cited for making a move are very telling:

 

DJ, “This is something new. I like to do a lot of other things besides golf. I get to spend a lot more time with my family and doing the things I love to do.”

 

Brooks, “Look, what I’ve had to go through the last two years on my knees, the pain, the rehab, all this stuff, you realize, you know, I need a little bit more time off. “

Bryson, “it was going to give me more resources and opportunities to reinvest in my local community in Dallas, and back at my original home in California, where I can do things for junior golf tours, improve my foundation and also build the multi-sport complex I'm going to be here shortly in Dallas.”

 

 

So, that’s fantastic and I think these guys should 100% do what’s best for themselves.

 

But, what *dont we hear in those reasons….

 

 

 

I joined the liv because I’m really ready to kick butt and take names! Liv is going to keep my skills on a razors edge and give me the best opportunity to win major championships.

 

That’s what I meant when I said we might never hear from Cam again ; )

[clp34vmp]

21 minutes ago, physasst said:

Yeah, and OWGR points are lower for those events because of that, but at least its competitive golf, not exhibition golf, which by the testimony yesterday, LIV clearly is. I mean, I thought it was pretty freakin cool that a 20 y/o kid who wasn't even a PGA tour member, won this last weekend and played his way onto the tour. That's awesome. That variability is what I love...Watching the same 2-3 guys win every week is boring. Which is why I didn't watch a lot during the height of the Tiger era.

 

I want to see guys hungry. Guys giving everything to chase that dream and climb that mountain. Not a bunch of has-beens petulantly whining about that they "deserve" so much money. To them I say...F Off.....no one deserves anything...NO ONE. 

 

When I was in the Navy, I was a SARC and while not with the SEALS, knew a bunch of them. They had a saying/mantra that I think is apropos to life in general. "The only easy day was yesterday". That's life. 

 

M

 

Go to point out one contradiction in your post, physasst - you want to see guys who are hungry but didn't enjoy watching peak Tiger?? I don't think there ever has been or will be anyone hungrier than peak Tiger.

[idrive]

I'd love to see a list of the guys that GN recruited hard, offered big money and turned him down.

 

I'm thinking it's a longer list than most of us would think.  I'd really like to know... might have to take a couple of the needles/pins out in some of the dolls I have.  🤣

[NMBob]

 

What are the grounds for the usga to ban players who resigned from the pga tour.  I doubt there are any.   Also, that would prove, you can never, ever resign from the pga tour.  Under what rules or laws, can the usga and r and a dictate what companies golfers can work for?  If you want to crush liv golf, that would be the lawsuit the usga will lose, that will give the liv tour life.   

 

 

As for the suspended players, they can announce their resignations.   Worst case how can they be suspended from the Opens after their suspension period would have ended?

 

as people have posted, the rankings points will wain, and that will take a while to change to help liv golfers,  if it does.    Liv golf can start their own ranking company, then the majors will have trouble claiming they have all the best golfers.  The majors don't need to ban or suspend anyone. 

[jdl]

So LIV = Korn Ferry level fields. And they still need to make format changes to be able to get these points a year after those changes happen.

[bladehunter]

52 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I'm sure all the PGA guys are getting a lot of coaching on things that will make great headlines in these days of "tour wars". I'm surprised the words "meritocracy" and "tradition" weren't sprinkled in there a few times! LOL

 

Maybe he means it, he's 20! Good for him for being motivated by other things. Let someone put the check in front of him

 

It's the Sheffler's and Rahm's that to me are more impressive. Because for sure they got offered huge paydays and decided to stay, betting on themselves and probably valuing the history etc of the tour.

I don’t know Jeff. I’m 42. And I absolutely get what he’s saying.  Ive always had the attitude that “ it’s just money. I’ll make more if need be. “.   
 

 

a pretty good cinema line crossed my ears last night. Something like this “ you’ve spent a Long time knowing that death was immanent. So you never thought of tomorrow… so you were busy living  today.  now you’ve realized you’re not going to die soon.  And you have no idea how to think. Or how to live with that assumption…..worry of not knowing when is worse than death “. 
 

 

i think that drives some either way.  What good is $100 million to the guy who’s dying tomorrow?  But.  What does the guy who lives too long do to survive ? 
 

i don’t  personally think that the tiger types ever expect long life. 

[physasst]

23 minutes ago, Christosterone said:

You didn’t watch golf during the tiger era because you want to “see guys hungry?”
 

Tiger was the most hungry, winning-obsessed golfer to ever play with only Jack and Lord Byron in the same conversation related to hunger for winning every single time they teed it up.

 

-chris 

 

 

-chris

Agreed...I just got bored watching him win....that's me. I want to see the nobodies win. The underdogs. I'm like that with pretty much every sport. May explain why I'm a lifelong Browns fan...LOL.

 

M

[cristphoto]

As I understand it the Asian Tour will allow LIV players to play. Possibly some other Tour too. 

 

Scenario 1: What if a LIV player does well on the Asian Tour (wins money title)?  Does he get an invite to The Masters.  I know Masters is generous on giving world players an exemption there.  

 

Scenario 2: If a LIV player has played the Asian Tour and wins there could he get an invite to play a PGA Tour event?  Since never a PGA Tour player he hasn't broken any PGA rules.  Or is PGA Tour banning anyone that's played LIV.  (To me this could win a lawsuit against the PGA).  

[CDM]

15 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

I assume you read the texts between Sergio and Norman?

I did but it never stated Greg personally was an attorney, just that it was looked into by attorneys.

[Holy Moses]

57 minutes ago, khalespace said:

If LIV broadcast is given away for almost free, I bet some networks like MTV, History Chanel will pick it up.

They tried to pay Fox to put it on TV. Fox said no.

[Htk084]

Younger players do not care nearly as much about money as the older guys from yesteryear 

 

younger guys in general just don’t care as much

[freeze16172002]

12 hours ago, bekgolf said:

The Sun is reporting that Cameron Smith is planning on playing the Fedex playoffs.  It's also reporting the he starts with liv on September 2 and signed for 83 million pounds.

Most likely a three year deal. His endorsement money could be 30 million plus on the pga tour. Is it worth it to give up your career to join the circus

[CDM]

18 hours ago, johnseg said:

Do you realize that a player who won shot 27 on the front 9 and went on to win the tournament? To top that off he is 20.

 

Try to reply again since the moderators think my prior post about reading/fundamental was found to not  be appropriate I guess....??

 

I did not say the players, I said the broadcast............      

Edited August 10, 2022 by CDM

[Potatohead]

One thing I am finding hard to imagine is that if Cam is certain to go to LIV, and the tour knows that, why they are allowing him to play in the FedEx cup. Legal advice to let him play until his announcement is official? Sponsors/FedEx asking them to let him play?

 

That part to me is interesting and I don't quite understand it. 

 

 

[farmer]

There will come a time for the LIV players when that big contract comes back to bite them in the a**.   "I really want to play in the Masters!  What do you mean by qualify for the Open?  I'm good, come on!"

[bladehunter]

51 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Exactly, there is a reason people are saying that the agents are driving the players to sign with Liv. I’m sure they all

are well aware of their players ambitions, goals, and work ethic. 
 

Anyone that has taken a personal finance class understands the power of the time value of money.  Any agent  would be incompetent not to tell them to take the money now

regardless of future potential earnings

unless the players main goal is legacy. 

Let’s not forget the agents personal stake. 10% upfront for them on 200 mil might cause them to put a thumb on the scale of decision. 

[jt2gt]

It's another tour that pays much better.  That's really all it boils down to for the players.  Players like Cam realize there will never be another Tiger or Jack, they will be able to play the majors, and they won't have to grind it out at random pga events.  

[freeze16172002]

1 hour ago, lowndes said:

 

The easy answer is that when a player joins LIV they should resign from the PGA Tour and going forward there isn't a Media Rights issue in the North America market.  At least that is what the court filings make it look like. 

 

That said - I doubt any major network is still going to give LIV a contract in their current format.  And if they did the dollar figures would not be very high.

A hot girl hitting a golf ball gets more views than a Liv event. A network has to take into consideration the interest in the subject. They are not getting on the golf channel, so who will broadcast the friday exhibition? and weekend liv golf will be going up against college and pro football. are they going to bump seinfeld re-runs for LIV that might get 1/3 of the viewership

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, lowndes said:

 

The easy answer is that when a player joins LIV they should resign from the PGA Tour and going forward there isn't a Media Rights issue in the North America market.  At least that is what the court filings make it look like. 

 

That said - I doubt any major network is still going to give LIV a contract in their current format.  And if they did the dollar figures would not be very high.

 

You're a lawyer, and I'm an engineer, so I'd love your opinion on this...

 

I think the Competing Events requirement is very likely to be upheld. But I think the media rights might be on shaky ground. 

 

Reasoning:

 

1. The Competing Events requirement only imposes restrictions on a player's activity. If a player violates that rule and become subject to punishment from the Tour, that is between the player and the Tour. A third party who hosts the competing event is not a party to the PGA Tour guidelines and thus has no liability for allowing a player into their tournament despite the PGA Tour not granting a release. 
2. The Media Rights requirement imposes restrictions on that third party hosting a "golf program" or tournament (and any third parties broadcasting that tournament). If the PGA Tour owns the media rights of the golfer, then a broadcaster becomes liable in the sense that they can't broadcast the player, because the player can't legally give them permission to rights the player doesn't own. Given that LIV, nor a potential broadcaster, are not signatories to the PGA Tour's membership agreement, I don't see how they can legally be liable for violating it. But they would be liable if the PGA Tour sued them for trying to broadcast a player whose rights are owned by the PGA Tour, right? 
3. The Media Rights requirement is legally superfluous in the sense that a player has to be granted a release for a Competing Event. Perhaps "Competing Event" needs to be expanded to include anything considered a "golf program" that might be broadcast opposite a PGA Tour event, and not just tournaments, but if you have to request permission to participate, then there doesn't need to be an additional ownership of your media rights when you're not participating in PGA Tour events. Pooled media rights for the purposes of PGA Tour tournaments/events would be unaffected if you removed the Media Rights release requirement, so it's not like the PGA Tour couldn't still negotiate mega-million dollar broadcast agreements for their own tournaments. They just couldn't hold third parties liable if a player violates their guidelines and that third party broadcasts the player. 

 

Thoughts?